[JasonC]

No, we cannot agree on that. There is failure, yes, but it is not a right. A failure to repay what is owed to a creditor is theft of the creditor's property from said creditor. And the robber's property is forfeit to meet the creditor's just claim. "Whoops, I lost it, so I don't owe you anything", is not a claim you should try to make before any real court.

Limitation of liability, corporations not being the same as their owners, the protection of bankruptcy if all assets fail, these are all defenses against other items of value being conveyed to a just creditor in payment of the deadbeat robber's just debts. But his just debts they are, and he owes them, in equity and economically. A contract may specify collateral to be pledged in place of repayment; but that is not taken it is owed, and sometimes more to spare as well, when it is not sufficient to actually defray the debt.

There is no right to rob other men of their capital. If you lose it, you still owe it back to them, and honest men move heaven and earth to repay what they owe, and so remain honest men. Deadbeats run to the mercy of the law and the protection it affords to the despondent and ruined. That is mercy rather than justice, and it is exercised at the expense of the just rights of the creditor. And endlessly indulged by populist ambulance chasers and demagoguing politicians.

The economics and the morals of the matter are clear. Right is with the creditor, and if the debtor gets off the hook by hook and by crook, well that is what crooks do for a living. But right is exactly what it isn't.

It may be a teaching of prudence that all the creditor can expect to get is his collateral; it isn't equity or economics or morals. Those all dictate performance as contracted, no less. And falling short of that performance is not the birthright of all deadbeats, and paying for all deadbeats is not the birthright of all creditors, who are not your ATM.

[marshmallow]

Typical muddying of the waters. I never said failure to pay back was a right. Behave yourself and stop messing with words.

I said it was not theft.

Do I have to cut and paste the dictionary definition of "theft" for you?

Let's say I decide to make widgets and I come to you for a loan. We both agree it's a great idea and you give me the money in the usual financial contract format. Things go well for a while and the money flows. Then somebody invents a device which renders widgets obsolete. Nobody wants them, and I go broke. Bankrupt!

You take whatever collateral was agreed upon in the terms of the loan agreement but you've still taken a haircut.

That's theft?