Posted on 04/02/2010 9:24:47 AM PDT by ICAB9USA
From C. S. Lewis:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but ................ those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
B.O. is the devil............... no one knows the REAL truth of this fool. It is time to take his smokes away from him.
Lots of people, even lots of FReepers want to live under a government that regulates their lives unnecessarily and excessively. They want a federal government that does more than was given to it to do and they want a state/local government that punishes people they don’t like. They, of course, should not be punished and they don’t think the government would ever turn on them.
This applies to the religious right as well as the left.
Boy, you got that right. Just the other day someone here applauded a law making strip club illegal in Iceland.
You may or not like the idea of strip clubs, but you certainly don’t have to patronize one.
There are many here (particularly the so called social conservatives) who - like the left - always think “there oughta be a law”.
I would gladly trade them to the left in exchange for their anti-government types.
>You may or not like the idea of strip clubs, but you certainly don’t have to patronize one.
Indeed, this is true.
>There are many here (particularly the so called social conservatives) who - like the left - always think “there oughta be a law”.
I think that if there is a law, it should be at the city-level, that way it is not the ‘government’ far away mandating something, but the people ‘right here’ saying that they, as a community, don’t want it around.
>I would gladly trade them to the left in exchange for their anti-government types.
I think I see what you’re getting at.
There are inherently damaging activities that we currently treat as ‘private.’ This is where the libertarian view loses the religious conservatives. Libertarians believe that just leaving us all alone would be a good thing.
Like it or not, the Christian worldview made this country great because of its religious conservatism, including not only the right to the fruits of individual achievement, but the recognition of certain societal taboos against ‘private’ behaviors that actually break down society itself.
Religious conservatives believe that there are things done in private that are damaging to society as a whole, like adultery.
That’s just plain hogwash!
Yes, and those that know history know that the leading cause of death among murdered people in the 20th century was their own government.
Yes, and those that know history know that the leading cause of death among murdered people in the 20th century was their own government.
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In 1859 Darwin told us that we were animals, and that God was impotent. Totalitarians quickly replaced God with the government, and abused the privilege.
This is why the Judeo-Christian worldview is the only ideal which will now save us.
Why do religious conservatives feel the need to legislate morality? Do they not really believe in the fallen nature of man?
Do they think that it’s the government’s job to change people’s behavior, rather than their own responsibility to get off their rears and preach the gospel to people?
Do they really believe that giving government more power will be a good thing? If so, is this based on an assumption that the government is not made up of fallen men that will abuse the power they are given?
What’s up with the inconsistency among religious conservatives, assuming they actually believe in the fallen nature of man? Do they not have cognitive dissonance?
Maybe they don’t think too deeply about the nature of man and government power.
Government is made of men. Men are evil. Given power, men will abuse it. Thus I seek to limit the power that other men have over me.
God changes hearts and minds. Prison time for wasting time smoking pot gives someone time to study how to be a better criminal.
MC: Why do religious conservatives feel the need to legislate morality? Do they not really believe in the fallen nature of man?
Esquirette: All legislation seeks some ‘good,’ and is, therefore, inherently related to someone’s morality. It is because Christianity presumes the fallen nature of man that it benefits a nation.
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MC: Do they think that it’s the government’s job to change people’s behavior, rather than their own responsibility to get off their rears and preach the gospel to people?
Esquirette: All government believes it can change people’s behavior. That is why there are penalties.
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Do they really believe that giving government more power will be a good thing? If so, is this based on an assumption that the government is not made up of fallen men that will abuse the power they are given?
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Giving the government more power is not advisable, but we should retreat from no-fault divorce, and enforce the laws against prostitution and co-habitation that we have.
This is an example of the Christian worldview in action. If we actually had it instead of maligning it, we would need fewer laws, not more.
So, assuming there is some 'good' behind legislation, there must be some 'good', to someone, behind ObamaCare. But this 'good' appears to, in reality, ration health care for the sick and old and generally degrade the standard of living for most everyone.
How is this objectively good for anyone besides the evil men that make up the government and seek power over others?
It is because Christianity presumes the fallen nature of man that it benefits a nation.
I assume the "It" refers to Christianity. I agree that Christianity benefits a nation. So why do the religious right people ignore their responsibility to share Christ with others and instead seem to put their faith in government to fix everything? This is erroneous. I don't believe the government cares about helping people. I believe the government cares about power over people. It is foolish for anyone to look to government to solve certain things when it just empowers government and that power will be turned against those seeking to empower the government one day.
All government believes it can change people’s behavior. That is why there are penalties.
So you make doing antisocial behavior x more expensive. The criminal then moves on to antisocial behavior y. They are still broken and antisocial.
I'm saying that to really change someone's life, Christians need to stop looking to government to solve things because it is misdirected. They need obey the Great Commission.
God changes hearts and minds. Prison time for wasting time smoking pot gives someone time to study how to be a better criminal.
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We do not disagree, but our presumptions differ. Prison is not biblical, and has its foundations in Quaker-ism, not Christianity.
The Bible does recognize that idleness is sinful, though not necessarily criminal. The man who will not support his family, for example, is said to be worse than an infidel. Based upon this notion, we used to have laws (even in my lifetime) of support, and we still have criminal penalties for non-payment of alimony and child support. These laws are based on the Christian worldview.
However, our libertarian view is destroying these laws, and there is a huge detrimental effect upon society as a whole.
I agree. This is another example of government encroachment. Marriage licenses were devised so as to regulate the human relationships in which freed blacks could engage.
Nowadays, marriage licenses are generally a contract between a woman, the state on a man. Want to end the divorce epidemic? Change the laws so that the children always go to the father, except under extreme circumstances such as prison.
...nforce the laws against prostitution and co-habitation that we have.
I'm more in favor of public rebuking, humiliation, shame, and shunning myself. Do it yourself. You would prefer to call the cops on your child if he/she started shacking up rather than dealing with it yourself?
I’m saying that to really change someone’s life, Christians need to stop looking to government to solve things because it is misdirected. They need obey the Great Commission.
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Agreed, absolutely.
I’m more in favor of public rebuking, humiliation, shame, and shunning myself. Do it yourself. You would prefer to call the cops on your child if he/she started shacking up rather than dealing with it yourself?
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Stocks!
I think it is a problem of the Church and more of a reliance on government, rather than a desire to get government out of things, that is the root of this problem.
The church has become sissified, feminized, marxified, and drifted away from the core biblical truths.
I am grateful that I have found a bible-believing and preaching church that is not populated by just old people and women who get together each week to hear a lecture on political correctness.
So there are no do-gooder Christians passing laws to protect us from ourselves? It's pretty much the definition of blue laws.
You believe those people equate to tyrants? What laws are you talking about anyway? Spitting on a sidewalk? Whore houses next to churches? Laws regarding decency equals tyranny? You’re just plain wrong.
The “religious right” does not support tyranny. If every member of congress was Christian and conservative (which is what “religious right” means) we would not have tyranny but would have the freedom our founders fought and died for.
Founders: All but a few would be considered religious right today.
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