It's a dog-beat-dog world: Working mutts don't get a fair shake at big show

nydailynews ^ | February 18th 2010

[Darnright]

>Only Two herders? Australian Cattle dogs don’t have a chance<

Other herding dogs have won BIS at Westminster, but when they did so, their breeds were in the Working Group. The Herding Group is a fairly recent addition to AKC’s classification system.

[allmendream]

The selective pressure is the criteria by which a breeder chooses which animals to breed and which to not breed. The selective pressure can be towards looks, performance, affability as a pet; or any other criteria people choose. Any selective criteria, or even the lack of criteria; has its own selective pressure that will effect the evolution of the interbreeding population.

My point was and remains that the monomaniacal focus on looks above everything else that is the AKC standard is not a good thing for working breeds of dogs. Once you abandon the criteria of performance and decide to go with looks, you have changed the selective pressure being exerted upon the population; which will have a beneficial effect upon the looks of the population, but a detrimental effect upon its performance.

[Roses0508]

We had a Great Pyrenees (Griffin) for years. They are incredible dogs. We will have another one day. The cutest thing I ever saw was my granddaugher (18 mos old) toddle up to Griffin, grab his face by the jowls and plant a kiss smack on his nose. Griffin sat there wagging his tail with a big smile on his face. He was sooo gentle with her - a big white gentle giant dog guardian for a little girl.

He’d go walkabout and people would call the police to report all kinds of unlikely sightings. Some people simply did not believe that could be a dog!

[Darnright]

>My point was and remains that the monomaniacal focus on looks above everything else that is the AKC standard is not a good thing for working breeds of dogs<

Here is a segment of the Anatolian Shepherd standard, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the way the dog looks:

Temperament
Alert and intelligent, calm and observant. Instinctively protective, he is courageous and highly adaptable. He is very loyal and responsive. Highly territorial, he is a natural guard. Reserve around strangers and off its territory is acceptable. Responsiveness with animation is not characteristic of the breed. Overhandling would be discouraged.

[johncatl]

What a great looking dog!

[allmendream]

Their description of the temperament of the breed is not the standards by which they judge the breed, but its dimensions, musculature, coat, etc; how it looks.

An AKC champion Anatolian Shepherd is judged by his looks, they don't seek to asses that the dog is “highly adaptable” or judge that the dog is “highly territorial”.

[Darnright]

>Their description of the temperament of the breed is not the standards by which they judge the breed, but its dimensions, musculature, coat, etc; how it looks.

An AKC champion Anatolian Shepherd is judged by his looks, they don’t seek to asses that the dog is “highly adaptable” or judge that the dog is “highly territorial”.<

You are wrong. If an Anatolian does not display the required aloof nature, or if it reacts to excitedly to its handler, a qualified judge should penalize it appropriately; just as a Belgian Malinois should be heavily penalized for excessive shyness.

[allmendream]

Yes, dogs that perform well according to the standards in a show becomes the ideal. Looks and what they can tell of its temperament being “handled”.

That isn't selecting for performance, or at least not the performance that the dog was formerly bred for.

[Darnright]

>That isn’t selecting for performance, or at least not the performance that the dog was formerly bred for. <

So, if you want to see change, join an AKC member club, run for AKC delegate, go to the meetings in NY and tell the other AKC delegates and the board that you know how to change the world. Teach those hayseeds how to wear shoes.

[allmendream]

No need for all that. I just cannot bemoan the fact that the AKC ‘ignores’ working breeds because I don't see their attention to a breed as an unalloyed positive. They encourage selection towards looks and ‘performance’ as a show dog.

There are already organizations and breeders out there selecting for a breeds intended performance (field trials, word of mouth, hunting organizations, etc), and they will maintain the adherence of the breed towards its intended function, which for most breeds -looks and affability as a pet are secondary.

[Darnright]

>I don’t see their attention to a breed as an unalloyed positive. <

I see the damage done by the back-yard breeder, whose criteria for selection of a mate for Snookums is, “is he less than 2 blocks from my house” and “will his owner take a puppy in payment for his services” without the first thought about his genetic health; much less the fact that his bitch has been on thyroid for years, and phenobarb to keep those pesky seizures at bay. Oh, and no worries that the prospective doggy husband has just been let off quarantine for biting the next-door neigbor’s toddler.

[allmendream]

Yeah, I am just SURE that is how field trial organizations, hunters, herders, and other professional users of working dogs plan their breeding/s.

[Darnright]

>Yeah, I am just SURE that is how field trial organizations, hunters, herders, and other professional users of working dogs plan their breeding/s.<

Never said they did. You are the one to allude to the fact that “AKC” encourages people to breed for looks. My reply was about Patrick Pet Owner, who does far more harm to a given breed because of the way his breedings are planned (or not planned).

Those who breed for performance and who do their homework produce good animals. That said, more field labs bought by pet owners end up in the dog pound than do show labs. Field dogs need to be owned by experienced trainers. Think “Marley and Me”.

[JenB987]

I'll keep my mutt. He's best in show in my house. And he loves his dad...always going over to put his head on his chest when he's taking a nap on the couch.

[Ditto]

Looks a lot like a mutt I had years ago. We picked her up at a city dog pound, and she seemed forever grateful that we saved her from that place. The most intelligent, loyal and well behaved dog I ever had.

[JenB987]

Dogs know when they aren’t wanted...poor things. We adopted Brew from the Humane Society when he was only 8 weeks old. Someone left him and his brothers and sisters in box outside in January when they were only 4 weeks. One of the girls was dead when the workers found them. When we got there, there were only him and his brother left...we almost brought them both home. Now I really wish we did.

[JoeProBono]

[allmendream]

And the AKC attention to a working breed tends to encourage “Patrick Pet Owner” to own one.

That you point out the attitude difference between a field trial lab and an AKC “show” lab (with the show lab making the better pet) tends to emphasize my point. Adherence to looks and performance in shows and being a pet has diluted that drive to excel that makes a good hunting lab (but sometimes not such a great pet).

[Darnright]

>Adherence to looks and performance in shows and being a pet has diluted that drive to excel that makes a good hunting lab (but sometimes not such a great pet). <

Then working dogs should not be offered nor sold to the unsuspecting. If enthusiasts breed for hyperactivity and so much prey drive the dog is uncontrollable without a Tri Tronics collar, they have no business foisting their culls off on an unsuspecting, unprepared public as “pets”.

Hyperactivity like that of some field “champions” would be very undesirable to the average weekend duck hunter, anyway. They, too, want a steady, reliable, clear-headed partner who is perfectly willing to curl up in the kitchen when at home with the family.

There is room in the world for good, steady, clear-headed Labs. They are not some sort of defect.

[allmendream]

They are a defect from a working breed of dog if they are not a good worker.

And it isn't “foisting off their culls” to sell someone a good working lab.

And the family has no business being either “unsuspecting” or “unprepared” for an active friendly sweet loving dog that lives to fetch ducks (or tennis balls as a good substitute) out of freezing water; even if it is a bit more hyperactive than a lab that has been downgraded to be a less active pet dog instead of a working breed.

Once again you reiterate my point that the attention of those who want to make good looking pets out of a working breed of dog is detrimental to the function of that working breed.