So (I'll ask again) do you believe this to mean that the Founders were wrong and there is a divine right of kings? Remember that Paul's Epistles were LETTERS to specific churches....
Paul does say that to all Christians, but he is writing by the direct authority of God, under God's direct guidance, and saying exactly what God would have him say. So, we use the terminology that "Paul wrote" because he was the human agency involved, but it was God's Word that was being written.
So, what can be said about that is that God says that there is no authority except from Him, and the authorities that exist are appointed by Him. And God tells all Christians how to respond to them.
We have the examples of the Apostles when authorities tried to get them to disobey God in place of the authorities. On those matters, they said they would obey God and not them. It's only in that kind of situation that I see that any of them disobeyed the authorities, because God commanded differently.
If our local authorities said to stop all proclaiming of the Gospel and it's now illegal -- then we would have to disobey the authorities (as Christians) because God commands differently.
But, if it's not a matter where God did command differently and/or they're not violating some direct scripture to the contrary, then we are to obey the authorities. That's pretty clear. Whether you like it or not is another story.
On the matter of going to war (like in the colonies and in our history), that's yet again, another story, too. If you are part of a government that orders you to war (say like the draft, for example) and it's a matter of national defense, that does come under following the authority of the local government, unless you somehow see something there that is in direct violation of God's command. But, when it comes to "national defense" a good case is made for that, on Biblical terms and under the authority of God.
In terms of the colonies, that would be something that each person would have to determine for themselves, as to whether they were following the local authorities in defending their homeland and if they considered their allegiance to the colony as primary or the allegiance to the King as primary. The colonies did consider themselves to be sovereign states, as I understand it. So, it does comes down to the individual and what he sees that the Bible makes clear about the subject.
But, as for me, right now -- this is where I live and this is the government that I have, and as God has made clear -- He is the One who has installed them in place. And those laws, regulations, judges, government, etc. are to be followed and obeyed. It doesn't mean that I cannot work to change things, but as they are, then I am supposed to follow them.
This sounds very explicit and clear to me and to anyone else who reads it. People may not like what they read and they may personally disagree with it, but that's just what God says...
Romans Chapter 13 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
More like someone understands that "nations", in this case, refers to "the peoples of the Earth" as in ethnos, not modern nation states. The outer darkness is Hell and the Kingdom referenced is Heaven. You speak of Judgement Day, not the inauguration of a theological government.
Well, I read the following (as you brought it up before) and it sounds pretty clear to me. He's coming to His throne. It's already told to us that He'll be on the throne of David, so we know that. That's King David's earthly throne.
The Jews knew what Jesus was talking about in coming in His glory, to His throne, and judging the nations. It was all very familiar and quite understandable to them. They knew that the Messiah was coming to set up the Kingdom and that He would rule over all the nations.
That's the Kingdom mentioned further on down that was "prepared from the foundation of the world"...
And one group goes into everlasting punishment while the other goes to eternal life.
It's all really clear and understandable to me. I don't know why it's not understandable to you... :-)
Matthew Chapter 25 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
There you go again... with your appeals to authority. "Learned men" disagree about a whole host of things in the Bible.
Well, heck! There you go again... LOL... Just when I think you're reading something, you start not reading again. :-)
You'll note that I said the following...
And that's only to say, that studied and scholarly men of God, with degrees from various seminaries, have seen that the Bible says the same thing as I've just related to you about the Kingdom of God.
There are plenty of people who come up with things that are so outlandish and crazy that no one else on this earth could ever come up with it... LOL...
But, when you have something that you read and see that it's says a certain thing and you say "this is what it says" -- and you find that others have read that exact same thing -- then you know you're not coming up with something outlandish and so stupid that not a single other person in the world could ever come up with it...
That's the point to that. It's not a "private interpretation" that exist nowhere else. In fact, it's a "studied" understanding and one that others have worked for decade upon decade to arrive at. That, by itself is significant.
Then the next thing you seem to have failed to read, once again...
And besides that, I don't even need one of those scholar men and pastors and preachers to tell me that this is what the Bible says, because I also read it in the Word of God... so that's clear for anyone who "has an ear to hear"... as Jesus says.
I say that I don't even have to have any studied men or scholars or pastors or teachers explain it -- because as I read it, it's so plain and clear that I come up with the same thing all on my own... LOL...
But, of course, when someone says that, the next comeback to that (from someone opposing) is "Why does it make any difference if it's just you that says that?"
And then if someone mentions all the studied and scholarly men that say the same thing, then the comeback is "Why should I pay attention to the scholars when I get other scholars saying differently?"
For that kind of person, I've got to feel real sorry for -- because then I know that they can never understand or comprehend anything because if one person says something, why should they listen. If a bunch of scholars say something, no big deal because they can find a bunch of scholars to say something different... LOL..
With that kind of thinking -- that you obviously have, it's suprising that you're able to get out of bed and do anything or accomplish anything in real life... :-)
That's why Jesus said to those who would listen to Him and God's word "if they have ears to hear"...
I see we are back to derisive laughter. You believe what you have been *told*.
I'm derisively laughing because I don't know how someone gets by in life with the type of thinking that you exhibit... LOL..
And, I just got through telling you how I think about it, which is what I can plainly read. But, then again, you don't like what I can plainly read... :-)
Indeed. You certainly don't. If you should strive to try to convince someone your personal view of the Bible was the correct one, I'd suggest dropping the derisive and insulting attitude.
Like Jesus says, "if you have ears to hear" and He says it plainly enough about Him coming in His Kingdom here on earth and what He's going to do with the Sheep and Goat judgement, so that if you can't understand it, then it's on "your ears" and not mine... LOL...
I laugh all the time, because these things are so hilarious and unbelievable that some people actually attempt to live their lives this way... :-)
“In terms of the colonies, that would be something that each person would have to determine for themselves, as to whether they were following the local authorities in defending their homeland and if they considered their allegiance to the colony as primary or the allegiance to the King as primary. The colonies did consider themselves to be sovereign states, as I understand it. So, it does comes down to the individual and what he sees that the Bible makes clear about the subject.”
The colonies were not sovereign by any means. The colonists wanted their rights - as THEY saw them - as Englishmen. The legitimate government objected. That was a REBELLION against LEGITIMATE authority. They were also right.
“But, as for me, right now — this is where I live and this is the government that I have, and as God has made clear — He is the One who has installed them in place. And those laws, regulations, judges, government, etc. are to be followed and obeyed. It doesn’t mean that I cannot work to change things, but as they are, then I am supposed to follow them.”
So... let’s see.... illegal laws against the Constitution are to be obeyed? Jefferson was wrong? I’m just trying to feel out your somewhat odd worldview... that we should somehow submit to every indignity and transgression. That we should be happy in our chains. What kind of American are you? No Christian American I’ve ever encountered would countenance this worldview!
Romans 13 cannot be separated from historical context (avoiding trouble with Rome) and I really think you are missing Paul’s larger point. Rulers can be a “terror to good works”. Governments and order should be followed when they are NOT a terror to good works. Otherwise, their authority is not from God and we are under no obligation to obey them. Paul himself was imprisoned frequently for refusing to submit to civil authority. Human authority is LIMITED. If you view Romans 13 as a command to submit to any and all civil authority, then you’ve missed the point.
“Well, I read the following (as you brought it up before) and it sounds pretty clear to me. He’s coming to His throne. It’s already told to us that He’ll be on the throne of David, so we know that. That’s King David’s earthly throne.”
His throne in Heaven. The parable is talking about Judgment Day. You are following the “Left Behind” theology.
” But, when you have something that you read and see that it’s says a certain thing and you say “this is what it says” — and you find that others have read that exact same thing — then you know you’re not coming up with something outlandish and so stupid that not a single other person in the world could ever come up with it...
That’s the point to that. It’s not a “private interpretation” that exist nowhere else. In fact, it’s a “studied” understanding and one that others have worked for decade upon decade to arrive at. That, by itself is significant. “
Yet, many still disagree.... even people with the degrees in theology you uphold.
“I say that I don’t even have to have any studied men or scholars or pastors or teachers explain it — because as I read it, it’s so plain and clear that I come up with the same thing all on my own... LOL...”
Amusingly, not only do I read it differently, but so has every pastor I’ve spoken to on the subject.. Oh... I guess I should add an “LOL” to the end of that.
” I’m derisively laughing because I don’t know how someone gets by in life with the type of thinking that you exhibit... LOL..”
Ah, there’s the arrogance again. Are you a lawyer? It certainly makes you sound like one.
“And, I just got through telling you how I think about it, which is what I can plainly read. But, then again, you don’t like what I can plainly read... :-) “
I can plainly read and I read it differently. That’s something you can’t accept. That others might not agree that YOU “Star Traveler” are right in all things. Such hubris.
“Like Jesus says, “if you have ears to hear” and He says it plainly enough about Him coming in His Kingdom here on earth and what He’s going to do with the Sheep and Goat judgement, so that if you can’t understand it, then it’s on “your ears” and not mine... LOL...”
I can understand what He is saying perfectly well. You have your interpretation, I have mine. The “Sheep and Goat” judgment is Judgment Day, and the Kingdom of God mentioned is Heaven. It’s clear as day.
“I laugh all the time, because these things are so hilarious and unbelievable that some people actually attempt to live their lives this way... :-)”
More arrogant presumption. Typical.