Posted on 09/17/2009 12:55:08 PM PDT by Steelfish
Thousands of Catholic Pilgrims Queue For A Glimpse of St Therese of Lisieux Remains At The Start Of Month-Long UK Tour
Sophie Freeman 17th September 2009
[Several Pics in URL] Thousands of people flocked to a cathedral yesterday to catch a glimpse of the relics of a Roman Catholic nun described as the 'greatest saint of modern times'.
Pilgrims collapsed in tears as a casket containing the remains of St Therese of Lisieux arrived at St John's Catholic Cathedral in Portsmouth for the first part of a month-long UK tour.
Many of the faithful touched the protective glass or pressed rosary beads and cuddly toys against it, hoping the goodness of St Therese would rub off on them.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
There is nothing “holy” in an object, nor a dead body.
Cue the Catholic bashers ...
Christ the Son of God and Son of Man took the “human form” and ever since that moment in history and time, the remains of holy men and women (saints) are objects of veneration as you would venerate (not worship) a picture of your deceased beloved parents or a children.
I went to St. Patrick’s Cathedral when her relics came to New York. Lots of folks showed up.
"After my death I will let fall a shower of roses."
-- Saint Thérèse The Little Flower
She taught that it is possible to serve God, not through undertaking great deeds, but through daily personal devotion, dedication and sacrifice.
It was a mob scene at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C.
So you appear to agree such dead bodies and pictures are not “holy.”
Thank you.
Holy, only in the sense of being worthy of veneration not worship. Surely you’ve heard of the phrase “holy ground”?
Our bodies are not “holy”. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, but our body alone is not “holy.”
Holiness is the state of being holy, but this is an action verb, not a noun. Once dead, not even our bodies can be “holy” without our soul and energy animating them. They are no different than a rock to God. To worms, we become food, in fact. Are the worms made “holy” because they eat us? No.
“Holy” means to be “without sin.” If you want to use a different term to describe good thoughts of things that once existed, then please do so.
I think if you look up the etymology of the word “holy” in the religious context a sense of prayerful respect and sanctification is common. Thus we refer to blessed water as “holy water” or burial grounds that holds the remains of war heroes as “holy ground” or the incense from candles that metaphorizes the rise of prayers to heaven as “holy smoke” When we refer to the remains of a deceased as “holy” it connotes a life of sanctity. For example, the intact and un-decomposed remains of St. Bernadette of Lourdes are still in view as if she died a few days ago. I suspect you may find pics of these on the web. Even the body of Christ was reposed for three days in the tomb. Who can seriously question that these were “Holy” Remains of the Son of God or following his death, his “Holy Remains” hung lifeless on a Cross?
If you are using St. Bernadette as your example of holiness, you are venerating a wax mask and hands.
“St. Bernadette Soubirous at Nevers was exhumed and put on display with a wax mask and wax hand coverings”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Soubirous
Read about her exhumations by the Catholic church, there.
Enjoy venerating a mildewed corpse.
“Enjoy venerating a mildewed corpse.”
Your sarcasm nothwithstanding, I take it you concede that the remains of a saintly person could still be called “holy.”
Oh, and one other thing, here’s the full description of your reference which shows that even after three decades since her death her entire body was incurrupt.
Exhumations
St. Bernadette Soubirous at Nevers was exhumed and put on display with a wax mask and wax hand coverings.
Relic of St. Bernadette and stone from the Grotto of LourdesBishop Gauthey of Nevers and the Church exhumed the body of Bernadette Soubirous on September 22, 1909, in the presence of representatives appointed by the postulators of the cause, two doctors, and a sister of the community. They claimed that although the crucifix in her hand and the rosary had both oxidized, her body appeared “incorrupt” — preserved from decomposition. This was cited as one of the miracles to support her canonization. They washed and reclothed her body before burial in a new double casket.
The Church exhumed the corpse a second time on April 3, 1919. A doctor who examined the body noted, “The body is practically mummified, covered with patches of mildew and quite a notable layer of salts, which appear to be calcium salts. ... The skin has disappeared in some places, but it is still present on most parts of the body.”
In 1925, the church exhumed the body for a third time. They took relics, which were sent to Rome. A precise imprint of the face was molded so that the firm of Pierre Imans in Paris could make a wax mask based on the imprints and on some genuine photos. This was common practice for relics in France, as it was feared that the blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public. Imprints of the hands were also taken for the presentation of the body and the making of wax casts. The remains were then placed in a gold and crystal reliquary in the Chapel of Saint Bernadette at the mother house in Nevers. The site is visited by many pilgrims and the body of Saint Bernadette is still shown despite being nearly 130 years old.[2]hi
No, I do not believe a body can be “holy”. It is the soul and heart inside that is holy, though the Holy Spirit’s indwelling.
Do worms, when they eat a body you consider “holy,” become “holy” enough to venerate? We’re curious.
Do worms, when they eat a body you consider “holy,” become “holy” enough to venerate? We’re curious.
This is a false set-up you create. Simply because “holy” water, or “holy smoke” or “holy ground” or the “holy” remains of a human being is subject to the elements of nature doesn’t detract from the reverential nature of the subject-matter.
The objection of veneration is misunderstood:
Saint Jerome declared, “We do not worship, we do not adore, for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore him whose martyrs they are” (Ad Riparium, i, P.L., XXII, 907).
Here’s a short history of Christian relics that go back to the time of Christ:
History of Christian relics
One of the earliest sources that purports to show the efficacy of relics is found in 2 Kings 13:20-21:
20 Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. 21 Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet. (NIV)
These verses are cited to claim that the Holy Spirit’s indwelling also affects the physical body, that God can do miracles through the bodies of His servants, or both.
Also cited is the veneration of Polycarp’s relics recorded in the Martyrdom of Polycarp (written 150–160 AD). With regard to relics that are objects, an often cited passage is Acts 19:11–12, which says that Paul’s handkerchiefs were imbued by God with healing power.
Many tales of miracles and other marvels were attributed to relics beginning in the early centuries of the church; many of these became especially popular during the Middle Ages.
There are also many relics attributed to Jesus, perhaps most famously the Shroud of Turin, which is the burial shroud of Jesus Christ.
There is nothing like “holy water,” “holy smoke,” “holy ground,” or even, “holy cr@p.” The only thing that is holy is God. We can be more like God by striving to be sin free, but then we are not “holy” but “striving to be holy.” Being “holy” is not really possible when one is human and not God.
Objects are not “holy” because objects can not sin or nor sin-they aren’t human nor are they God. “Holy” does not mean “respectful.” It means “without sin.”
As for Elisha, we know that God can use anything for a point. As for the Holy Spirit indwelling in humans, that was sent by God first to the Apostles, so whatever was happening prior to that event in Acts is something entirely different.
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