Posted on 07/30/2009 11:59:33 PM PDT by Swordmaker
Again, you're going off of what's on the box, not what's under the hood. For example, whether it would support 2 or 32 processors, or 1 or 256 inbound connections, depended on what that registry entry was. Any extra utilities were just applications on top of the same exact OS.
It goes to support my point that there is nothing unusual about a "desktop" OS being based on a "server" OS when in the past they were essentially the same OS anyway.
For NT 4.0 when MS says there are 700 differences between client and server, you'd probably take that list at face value. What you don't know is that making that registry change to the client version caused a cascade of 700 changes to various settings in the OS to turn it into the server version. They were still the same core OS.
And you call me clueless?
Yes.
What does that make you?
Someone who knows my Windows history because I lived it.
That's one of the things she killed. It's like how at Apple when the sugar water salesman took over and quality took a nose dive.
one CEO can't destroy a culture that has been built over several decades
Eisner, Disney -- 'nuff said.
with one of the highest failure rates for any electronics product.
Numbers, please.
Nope.
I am going by what's under the hood of NT Server (DNS Server, Wins Server, DHCP Server etc etc etc), and I was going by what I said in my post, which was, and and I quote:
“NT Server has a heck of a lot more features, that are essential for any server operating system, that NT desktops simply don't have.”
I proceeded to prove that with solid evidence in my last post.
You on the other hand, totally avoided what my post was about, and brought in a link which had nothing to do with what I posted, in effect you wewe answering your own question that you made up yourself to suit your own purposes.
# 1. She never killed quality.
# 2. Hurd has reinvigorated HP sales, revenue, stock porice, morale, everything.
# 3. Going by the very high failure rates of iPods a few years back, Apple is not exactly the kind of company I am going to use as the standrad for high quality in electronics products. I'd say Nintendo, Canon, Nikkon, Samsung, LG etc all have better reputations for high quality in electronics products than Apple does.
“Eisner, Disney — ‘nuff said”
Nonsense.
# 1. Disney made lots of great movie under Eisner.
# 2. Eisner was at Disney far, far, far longer(21 years) than Fiorina was CEO at HP.
# 3. HP has been firing on all cylinders again(sales, profits etc) after Hurd took over.
Again, numbers, specifics, not vague claims. And even if you show me 100,000 failures, remember that's among well over 200 million sold for less than a 0.05% failure rate. That's damn good in anybody's book.
Nonsense.
Eisner destroyed the family entertainment that made Disney great. The guy even invested in PORN! Disney, into porn? Despicable. I guess you don't remember Roy Disney resigning over Eisner's actions. Katzenberg and Wells were responsible for the early Disney animation successes under Eisner, and Katzenberg eventually left because of Eisner (Wells had died, so was out of the picture). After that Disney entered its dark period, were the only good animation came from Pixar (a deal that Katzenberg had created). In fact, Eisner was willing to lose Pixar at the end of the contract, and that was a big part of what eventually got him kicked out.
Not even close. That a proven registry entry will switch it from client to server destroys any argument you may have. The rest is just added software components, not the core OS. Guess what, my basic Windows XP install will run DNS if I install some DNS software.
You on the other hand, totally avoided what my post was about
Your claim: Vista was a re-write of XP. Re-write can only refer to the code, not how it is marketed.
The truth: Vista was an evolutionary update of the Server 2003 code.
The subject is your incredulity that a client OS (Vista) could be based on a server OS (2003). I have proven that Vista was based on 2003. Windows NT was only an example of how the client and server OSs can be essentially the same in the face of your denial.
Yeah?
More like 100 times the figure you suggested.
Try 5-15%.
Even Apple themselves claim it's “only” 5% failure rate, but then Ron Enderle, the well known top IT analyst suggests its more like 15% of iPods fail within the first year alone.
The Chicago Tribune quoted one Natalie Kerris, a spokeswoman for Apple, as saying the iPod was only supposed to last for just “four years”. But then the self same Miss Kerris turned round and claimed she said it was “FOR years, not FOUR years”.Hmmmmmmmmmmm..it gets weirder and weirder.
Heck, even Macintoshcom's own informal study came up with a pretty high 13.7% of their iPod owners had suffered iPod failure rates
The Guardian, UK:
“The Tribune did point to an (unscientific) survey by macintouch.com of its readers (http://tinyurl.com/95l2g), in which more than 4,000 people owning 8,926 iPods - an interesting statistic in its own right - revealed that 1,416 had failed. Macintouch said that this was equivalent to a 13.7% failure rate (though the raw numbers suggest it's over 15%).”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/aug/03/gadgets.gifts
On top of all that, KIRO 7 recently did an investigation into large numbers of iPods, tghat have suddenly burst into flames and smoke, and injuring people and damaged property.
KIRO:
“An exclusive KIRO 7 Investigation reveals an alarming number of Apple brand iPod MP3 players have suddenly burst into flames and smoke, injuring people and damaging property.
It’s an investigation that Apple has apparently been trying to keep out of the public eye.
...............
It took more than 7-months for KIRO 7 Consumer Investigator Amy Clancy to get her hands on documents concerning Apple’s iPods from the Consumer Product Safety Commission because Apple’s lawyers filed exemption after exemption. In the end, the CPSC released more than 800 pages which reveal, for the very first time, a comprehensive look that shows, on a number of occasions, iPods have suddenly burst into flames, started to smoke, and even burned their owners.
Owners like Jamie Balderas of Arlington, Washington, who contacted KIRO 7 in November of 2008.
“At first I thought, how in the heck did I get burned? Right there?” she told Clancy, while pointing to a penny-sized, round burn on her chest. “Then I remembered that I had my iPod right there.”
Balderas says her brand new iPod Shuffle overheated while she was running days before, leaving her with a small burn right where the iPod was clipped to her shirt, next to her skin. “My skin started burning really bad, like it was a bee sting that wouldn’t stop.”
...................
But the documents Clancy obtained indicate future action, including a recall, is possible. Apple has been notified by the Consumer Product Safety Commission that it is the California company’s obligation to “inform the Commission of defects associated with this product which could create a substantial product hazard under 15 U.S.C 2064(a).” The documents further reveal, if Apple “receives any information regarding other potential defects or hazards, it must report this information to the Office of Compliance and Field Operations immediately.” And that the CPSC staff “will assess any new information concerning this product to determine if action should be taken to protect the public.”
http://www.kirotv.com/money/20089894/detail.html?ref=pop
Of course Apple was their normal arrogant self, and did everything they could to stonewall consumers who had been burned by their iPods.
You get the drift..for the Applebits to even attempt to hold up Apple as the poster boys for quality is quite a big joke. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Yes close.
I annihilated your insistence that Windows NT Workstation and Windows NT Server were the same apart from one registry entry. Just in case you missed it the fist time, here's why:
Differences between NT workstation and NT server:
NT 4 Workstation: Memory Minimum 12 MB RAM Recommended 16+ MB RAM
NT 4 Server: Minimum 16 MB RAM Recommended 32+ MB RAM
NT 4 Workstation: Number of Processors Supported: 2
NT 4 Server: 32
NT 4 workstation: Fault Tolerance: None
NT 4 Server: Mirroring, Duplexing, RAID 5
NT 4 Workstation: Number of Inbound Dial-in Connections: 1
NT 4 Server : 256
NT 4 Workstation :File & Print Serving Peer (limited - see license)
NT 4 Server: Yes - requires Client Access Licenses
NT 4 Worskation: HTTP, Gopher, FTP Serving Peer: (limited - see license)
NT 4 Server: Yes - Internet Information Server
DNS
NT 4 Workstation : NO
NT 4 Server Yes
DHCP Server
NT 4 Workstation: No
NT 4 Server : Yes
WINS Server
NT 4 Workstation: No
NT 4 Server : Yes
Etc etc.
The two operating systems have different feature sets.
NT Server has a bigger footprint, has DHCP Server, WINS Server, DNS Server which are all NOT in NT workstation. That's why its a SERVER operating system. Get it?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You're funny. The famous Rob Enderle, the head of The Enderle Group a consulting company consisting of, well, Rob and his wife. The guy lives to attack Apple. That's it. It's usually quite easy to blow away his BS.
At least when I found somebody to talk about Windows Vista for you, I found somebody I know of well, a long-time Windows proponent. So if he's talking bad about Vista you can be sure there's not a grudge or ulterior motive.
The Chicago Tribune quoted one Natalie Kerris, a spokeswoman for Apple, as saying the iPod was only supposed to last for just “four years”
If that's indeed the truth, then anything outside of that shouldn't be held against Apple. IOW, they last as long as Apple says they do. OTOH, that sounds something more like the expected life of the battery, which is consumer-replaceable.
Try 5-15%.
Wow, one small "(unscientific) survey." I want whole numbers, not cherry-picked, definitely not admittedly unscientific. When it happened we calculated that battery explosion failure rate as something lower than the NASA allowed average failure rate for components.
But if you want anecdotal failure, how about that guy whose truck burnt to a shell because of his Dell laptop?
Apple isn't perfect, and neither are their products, but they do a hell of a lot better than most product manufacturers, both on reliability and what they do if your product fails.
Vista came from XP, via Win 2003.It was a re-write of the XPO kernel that put in massive massive new security features. Ergo, Vista came from XP. It's roots are in XP. Vista was the next desktop operating system after XP. Remember this argument started when Applebot "Habibi" posted this in post # 15, talking about Win 7 and XP:
“It is slightly more polished than XP, but it is not that much better.”
WRONG! The entire kernel was rewritten to make the opearting system much more secure between XP and Vista. I don't care if it went through the win 2003 route or not.
I guess Natalie Kerris of Apple likes to attack Apple too, then yes?
after all, it was she came up with a 5% failure rate for iPods, which was a massive ONE HUNDRED TIMES your own low ball figure of .05%.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/aug/03/gadgets.gifts .
I am still waiting for that maniacal laughter..still waiting...
You got numbers..from Apple themselves..and it's still a 5% iPod failure rate.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/aug/03/gadgets.gifts
“The guy lives to attack Apple. That's it. It's usually quite easy to blow away his BS.”
Ok.
Blow away this then:
"An exclusive KIRO 7 Investigation reveals an alarming number of Apple brand iPod MP3 players have suddenly burst into flames and smoke, injuring people and damaging property.”
http://www.kirotv.com/money/20089894/detail.html?ref=pop
Is KIRO 7 “biased” against Apple too?
RAM requirement is based purely on expected workload, so has nothing to do with the OS itself.
Things like IIS and other services are software packages loaded onto the basic OS. They won't even be on a Server installation if you don't choose to install them.
Processor, connection, disk and file and print limitations are purely artificial limits and they are controlled by that registry setting. For example, flip that client registry setting and suddenly you're allowed 32 processors instead of 2 and the file and print serving limits disappear.
And it still completely supports my point and erases yours. It is not uncommon not only for a client OS to be based on a server OS, but for the client and server OS to be the same thing, just with artificial limits set and differing extra software packages included.
"Kerris did say that iPods have a failure rate of less than 5%, which she called "fairly low" compared with other consumer electronics"
They support mine.
The supposedly bursting into flames is that infinitesimally small ratio I quoted earlier. Remember the burning Dell laptops? Remember the burning Nokias? The problem is with battery manufacturers, and it is rare in any device.
I see you are changing your claims now. You are welcome for the education.
It was a re-write of the XPO kernel that put in massive massive new security features.
So now you are restricting it to kernel, further changing your claims. Sadly, you are wrong again. The kernel was not rewritten. It had some changes and some extra features to protect it, but it's still an evolution even from the good-old Windows 2000 kernel.
I've shown you my evidence. You show me evidence of even your new more limited claims -- a complete kernel re-write between XP and Vista.
Time to put up or shut up.
Changing my claims nothing.
Vista STRATED from XP. It's irrelevant if it came through Win 2003 or not.
Plus Vista was the next desktop OF after XP, not Win 2003. Win 2003 is a server operating system, with totally different feature sets, like WINS, DHCP, DNS, plus it requires far more RAM, far more hard diskp space, with a different purpose than that of a desktop OS.
“So now you are restricting it to kernel, further changing your claims.”
I think you'd better re-read my original post to “Habibi” in post # 20, and I will reproduce the post in its entirety:
Habibi:
““It is slightly more polished than XP, but it is not that much better.””
Me:
“XP is not even on the same planet as Win 7.
The entire kernel was re-written from XP to Vista, with huge improvements in security and every aspect of the operating system(that's why Vista took over 5 years to make, and Vista used to break a lot of XP apps when it was first launched), and Win 7 really polishes up what was started in Vista.
For gaming, nothing in XP will even comes to close to DX 11 in Win7 when it launches."
Far from “further changing my claim” that was my VERY FIRST post on this subject IN THE ENTIRE THREAD. And it was about huge improvements in the KERNEL. Get it?
You are making things up.
YOU are not getting the point. You just keep dancing round the point. And making things up.
“RAM requirement is based purely on expected workload, so has nothing to do with the OS itself. “
It has bigger RAM requirement because it has DNS, WINS, DHCP etc etc, none of which NT workstation has.
The Server operating system BY ITSELF, already has a much bigger footprint than the desktop NT, even before it runs any applications at all. That is why Microsoft has HIGHER system requirement for INSTALLING NT Server than NT workstation. Get it?
“Things like IIS and other services are software packages loaded onto the basic OS”
Now why don't you show me where I ever mentioned IIS eh?
There you go making things up again, and then answering them yourself.
Don't ceate your own questions then answer them. Answer the questions I put to you, ok?
In case you forgot, I'll re-post what I posted before about the differences between NT Sever and NT workstation:
Differences between NT workstation and NT server:
NT 4 Workstation: Memory Minimum 12 MB RAM Recommended 16+ MB RAM
NT 4 Server: Minimum 16 MB RAM Recommended 32+ MB RAM
NT 4 Workstation: Number of Processors Supported: 2
NT 4 Server: 32
NT 4 workstation: Fault Tolerance: None
NT 4 Server: Mirroring, Duplexing, RAID 5
NT 4 Workstation: Number of Inbound Dial-in Connections: 1
NT 4 Server : 256
NT 4 Workstation :File & Print Serving Peer (limited - see license)
NT 4 Server: Yes - requires Client Access Licenses
NT 4 Worskation: HTTP, Gopher, FTP Serving Peer: (limited - see license)
NT 4 Server: Yes - Internet Information Server
DNS
NT 4 Workstation : NO
NT 4 Server Yes
DHCP Server
NT 4 Workstation: No
NT 4 Server : Yes
WINS Server
NT 4 Workstation: No
NT 4 Server : Yes
Etc etc.
The two operating systems have different feature sets.
NT Server has a bigger footprint, has DHCP Server, WINS Server, DNS Server which are all NOT in NT workstation. That's why its a SERVER operating system. Get it?
“Processor, connection, disk and file and print limitations are purely artificial limits and they are controlled by that registry setting”
DHCP, WINS, DNS ARE all part of the NT server. They are part of the feature set of NT server. They are what make NT server, NT server.
Again NT Server IS different from NT workstation. They are designed for different proposes.
Uh, no, only if you install those extra services. Give you a hint, most NT installed 3.51 servers were NOT running DNS, WINS or DHCP. In an entire network you only had a few such servers, plus a PDC/BDC. The rest were file sharing, dial-in, web serving or simply had server apps loaded on. And as has been proven, the difference between server and client on functionality that was part of the basic OS like file sharing was controlled by a registry setting.
The Server operating system BY ITSELF, already has a much bigger footprint than the desktop NT, even before it runs any applications at all.
Nope, current Microsoft Technical Fellow Marc Russinovich proved otherwise. Go ahead, try to prove him wrong on a matter of Windows internals. But it'll never happen. Showing marketing text doesn't quite do it.
That is why Microsoft has HIGHER system requirement for INSTALLING NT Server than NT workstation. Get it?
And when was the last time you trusted RAM requirements on the box? Please tell me you don't do that. Please don't tell me you think Vista Premium runs just spiffy on a 1 GHz processor, 1 GB RAM and 128 MB graphics.
Now why don't you show me where I ever mentioned IIS eh?
IIS is on par with those other services, not installed unless you choose to install them. It's still like that today. Server 2008, of which I currently have a copy running (on my Mac!) doesn't install any components except the basic OS unless you tell it to.
They are designed for different proposes.
Again you completely miss the point, your incredulity that server and client OS can be basically the same. Microsoft designed ONE core operating system for NT 3.51 (well, one for each processor).
BTW, as of SP1, Vista is operating on the same kernel as Server 2008. That should mess with your head. Although there are enough other differences so that a registry change won't flip Vista to 2008. Microsoft learned its lesson long ago.
Vista started on XP, true. Then they threw that away. Then Vista started on 2003. And, to the point, it was not a re-write even over XP.
Win 2003 is a server operating system, with totally different feature sets, like WINS, DHCP, DNS, plus it requires far more RAM, far more hard diskp space
Dude, I run something like 50 Windows 2003 servers and more in virtuals. Don't tell me what they take. RAM depends entirely on the workload you expect. A moderate-load 2003 file server can run fine on 512 MB, while running MS Office on XP chokes on the same memory, and forget Vista on that amount. On the other end I've run database servers with 64 GB RAM and eight processors that were starving. I've even used 2003 as a client (there are reasons to do so) and it behaves no differently and has no different real-world requirements than XP when so configured.
And, funny, even the useless paper requirements list 2003 as needing only a 133 MHz processor, XP with 233. Oh, you forgot all of the memory- and CPU-hogging eye candy people use on XP and Vista that is almost always TURNED OFF on a server installation?
The entire kernel was re-written from XP to Vista
And that quote is what is factually incorrect. There was no rewrite. There was modification from XP to 2003 and modification from 2003 to Vista, but no re-write even over the whole span.
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