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To: Who is John Galt?
Why would you suggest that the ordinances of secession were not 'valid?' And by 'valid,' do you mean constitutional, or do you have some other criterion (or criteria, many of which we've seen you mention, in passing, on previous occasions) that you are applying with regard to this post?

By not valid I mean not Constitutional. James Madison wrote that a rightful secession requires the consent of the other states as well as those leaving. As he noted, "The characteristic distinction between free Governments and Governments not free is, that the former are founded on compact, not between the Government and those for whom it acts, but between the parties creating the Government. Each of those being equal, neither can have more rights to say that the compact has been violated and dissolved, than every other has to deny the fact, and to insist on the execution of the bargains. An inference from the doctrine that a single state has a right to secede at will from the rest, is that the rest would have an equal right to secede from it; in other words, to turn it, against its will, out of its union with them. Such a doctrine would not, till of late, have been palatable anywhere, on nowhere less so than where it is not most contended for."

To accept the idea that a state can unilaterally secede from the Union is to believe that it has more rights under the Constitution than the other states.

1,282 posted on 07/10/2009 5:58:19 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
By not valid I mean not Constitutional.

Then, by all means, please cite the constitutional clause that prohibits State secession. Please be specific.

;>)

James Madison wrote that a rightful secession requires the consent of the other states as well as those leaving. As he noted, "The characteristic distinction between free Governments and Governments not free is, that the former are founded on compact, not between the Government and those for whom it acts, but between the parties creating the Government. Each of those being equal, neither can have more rights to say that the compact has been violated and dissolved, than every other has to deny the fact, and to insist on the execution of the bargains. An inference from the doctrine that a single state has a right to secede at will from the rest, is that the rest would have an equal right to secede from it; in other words, to turn it, against its will, out of its union with them. Such a doctrine would not, till of late, have been palatable anywhere, on nowhere less so than where it is not most contended for."

Citation, please?

(And thank you... ;>)

To accept the idea that a state can unilaterally secede from the Union is to believe that it has more rights under the Constitution than the other states.

Mr. Madison addressed the issue of State secession (specifically, the secession of States from a self-proclaimed "perpetual" union) in Federalist No. 43:

Two questions of a very delicate nature present themselves on this occasion:

1. On what principle the Confederation [formed under the Articles of Confederation, which declared, in writing, the establishment of a "perpetual" union"], which stands in the solemn form of a compact among the States, can be superseded without the unanimous consent of the parties to it?

2. What relation is to subsist between the nine or more States ratifying the Constitution, and the remaining few who do not become parties to it?

The first question is answered at once by recurring to the absolute necessity of the case; to the great principle of self-preservation; to the transcendent law of nature and of nature's God, which declares that the safety and happiness of society are the objects at which all political institutions aim, and to which all such institutions must be sacrificed.

PERHAPS, also, an answer may be found without searching beyond the principles of the compact itself. It has been heretofore noted among the defects of the Confederation, that in many of the States it had received no higher sanction than a mere legislative ratification. The principle of reciprocality seems to require that its obligation on the other States should be reduced to the same standard. A compact between independent sovereigns, founded on ordinary acts of legislative authority, can pretend to no higher validity than a league or treaty between the parties. It is an established doctrine on the subject of treaties, that all the articles are mutually conditions of each other; that a breach of any one article is a breach of the whole treaty; and that a breach, committed by either of the parties, absolves the others, and authorizes them, if they please, to pronounce the compact violated and void. Should it unhappily be necessary to appeal to these delicate truths for a justification for dispensing with the consent of particular States to a dissolution of the federal pact, will not the complaining parties find it a difficult task to answer the MULTIPLIED and IMPORTANT infractions with which they may be confronted? The time has been when it was incumbent on us all to veil the ideas which this paragraph exhibits. The scene is now changed, and with it the part which the same motives dictate.

The second question is not less delicate; and the flattering prospect of its being merely hypothetical forbids an overcurious discussion of it. It is one of those cases which must be left to provide for itself. In general, it may be observed, that although no political relation can subsist between the assenting and dissenting States, yet the moral relations will remain uncancelled. The claims of justice, both on one side and on the other, will be in force, and must be fulfilled; the rights of humanity must in all cases be duly and mutually respected; whilst considerations of a common interest, and, above all, the remembrance of the endearing scenes which are past, and the anticipation of a speedy triumph over the obstacles to reunion, will, it is hoped, not urge in vain MODERATION on one side, and PRUDENCE on the other.

When the terms of a compact (the Articles of Confederation), establishing a self-described "perpetual" union between the ratifying parties, and requiring unanimous consent for modification of said compact, are not sufficient to deny the right of State secession, then the specific written terms of the Constitution (as it existed in 1860) can hardly be said to do so...

1,316 posted on 07/10/2009 4:42:28 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
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