Posted on 03/21/2009 6:26:13 AM PDT by cowboyway
ATLANTA — In a cultural war that has pitted Old South against new, defenders of the Confederate legacy have opened a fresh front in their campaign to polish an image tarnished, they said, by people who do not respect Southern values.
With the 150th anniversary of the War Between the States in 2011, efforts are under way in statehouses, small towns and counties across the South to push for proclamations or legislation promoting Confederate history.
(Excerpt) Read more at courant.com ...
He was actually born and raised in California, though his family came from Virginia.
And he chose to live in Massachusetts, of all places.
Much is “news” to you!
Why don't you join up with them liberals {Like y'all ain't one}Come on down to Dixie and take more of our Heritage away?My bad~Your jest another internet Rambo!
Clinton,Dodd,McCain,Non-Sequitur & now Obama
Like I said don't cry to me about your ‘rights’ when that mighty Federal boot turns around and bites its lover {you}
What would Jesus SAY, or as far as that goes, what DID He say about slavery?
Lee believed that slavery would end, that it was instituted for a reason by God, and that blacks would be better off being exposed to Christianity. Lee shared the altar with blacks.
Lincoln was NOT against slavery because it enslaved blacks, Lincoln was against BLACKS sharing the continent with whites. A belief he held until his dying day. And Lincoln never shared the altar with anyone, he mocked Christianity.
Reported in the Baltimore Sun 23 Apr 1861 edition. Also by Evert Augustus Duyckinck in 1861. By Robert Reid Howison in 1862.
Lee refers to the Articles of Confederation, not the Constitution.
Even Lee knew that by 1861 we were operating under the Constitution and not the Articles of Confederation.
Southron whine #602: Any one who doesn't support the Southern rebellion jess gots ta be a damn liberal or commie or sech.
The Constitution does not contain the word "perpetual".
Lee believed blacks were better off in slavery, as he said on at least two occasions, the last time being January 1865.
Lee shared the altar with blacks.
So the story goes. All we have to substantiate the story is the word of a man who related the tale for the first time 40 years after the fact, and who may have been motivated by feelings that were less than Christian.
Lincoln was NOT against slavery because it enslaved blacks...
Lincoln was opposed to slavery, as he said on innumerable occasions.
...Lincoln was against BLACKS sharing the continent with whites.
Even if true, and I would argue that you are not, the alternative was the views of men like Lee and Davis who were perfectly willing to sharing the continent with blacks, so long as they were property and not people. Which was worse?
And Lincoln never shared the altar with anyone, he mocked Christianity.
Absolute nonense. Lincoln attended the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church while in the White House, paying annual rent on a pew, and forming a relationship with Rev. Dr. Phineas Gurley. Dr. Gurley presided over Willie Lincoln's funeral and later wrote of the President: "I have had frequent and intimate conversations with him on the Subject of the Bible and the Christian religion, when he could have had no motive to deceive me, and I considered him sound not only on the truth of the Christian religion but on all its fundamental doctrines and teachings. And more than that, in the latter days of his chastened and weary life, after the death of his son Willie, and his visit to the battlefield of Gettysburg, he said, with tears in his eyes, that he had lost confidence in everything but God, and that he now believed his heart was changed, and that he loved the Savior, and, if he was not deceived in himself, it was his intention soon to make a profession of religion."
Source?
"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?" -- Chief Justice Chase, 1869
“perpetual”
Is the KEY!
”... the several States composing the United States of America are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that, by a compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States, and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes — delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving, each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: that to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral part, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party: that the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself; since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers; but that, as in all other cases of compact among powers having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress. “ Thomas Jefferson
“[The Constitution] was constantly justified and recommended on the ground that the powers not given to the government were withheld from it; and that, if any doubt could have existed on this subject, under the original text of the Constitution, it is removed, as far as words could remove it, by the [10th] amendment, now a part of the Constitution, which expressly declares, ‘that the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.’
”The other position involved in this branch of the resolution, namely, ‘that the states are parties to the Constitution,’ or compact, is, in the judgment of the committee, equally free from objection... It appears to your committee to be a plain principle, founded in common sense, illustrated by common practice, and essential to the nature of compacts, that, where resort can be had to no tribunal superior to the authority of the parties, the parties themselves must be the rightful judges, in the last resort, whether the bargain made has been pursued or violated. The Constitution of the United States was formed by the sanction of the states, given by each in its sovereign capacity. It adds to the stability and dignity, as well as to the authority, of the Constitution, that it rests on this legitimate and solid foundation. The states, then, being the parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows of necessity that there can be no tribunal, above their authority, to decide, in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; and consequently, that, as the parties to it, they must themselves decide, in the last resort, such questions as may be of sufficient magnitude to require their interposition.” Madison
“An entire consolidation of the States into one complete national sovereignty would imply an entire subordination of the parts; and whatever powers might remain in them, would be altogether dependent on the general will. But as the plan of the convention aims only at a partial union or consolidation, the State governments would clearly retain all the rights of sovereignty which they before had, and which were not, by that act, EXCLUSIVELY delegated to the United States.” Madison
“Chief Justice Chase, 1869” “be perpetual.”
Does this idiot hide in your basement?
We have a COMPACT
John Quincy Adams, stated, “our Constitution of the United States and all our State Constitutions, have been voluntary compacts.”
Chief Justice John Jay, “expressly declares that the Constitution of the United States is a Compact.”
No, Chief Justice Chase died in 1873. I would have thought you would have known that, you being such a genius and all.
We have a COMPACT
And your point, assuming you have one, is?
There's no reason why it has to be perpetual. As Chief Justice Chase wrote, "When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States."
“No, Chief Justice Chase died in 1873. I would have thought you would have known that, you being such a genius and all.”
I would never assume to know what or how many Graves you’ve stolen too further your Lincoln worship!
“And your point, assuming you have one, is?”
We don’t since your Butchers invaded..By the way speaking of Butchers
Union Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman wrote:
“The United States has the right, and ... the ... power, to penetrate to every part of the national domain. We will remove and destroy every obstacle - if need be, take every life, every acre of land, every particle of property, everything that to us seems proper.”
October 10, 1863, declared:
“I have your telegram saying the President had read my letter and thought it should be published. I profess ... to fight for but one single purpose, viz, to sustain a Government capable of vindicating its just and rightful authority, independent of niggers, cotton, money, or any earthly interest.”
The Constitution abandoned the 'perpetual union'. The framers rejected it. As an aside, 3 US Supreme Court justices (all framers) held that a state could withdraw herself from the union.
[Justice Chase] What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?
And that explains why 9 [Note to Chase: 9 is LESS THAN 13) states would form a NEW union, leaving 4 in the dustheap of history. Indissoluble? The framers thought not. The framers rejected Madison's attempt to grant the military the power to compel a state to remain in the union.
And Lincoln believed blacks to be better off In Panama, the last time being April 1865.
All we have to substantiate the story is the word of a man who related the tale for the first time 40 years after the fact, and who may have been motivated by feelings that were less than Christian.
Yet we have over a dozen men of God that claim that Lincoln never set foot in a Springfield Church, that he mocked Christians, Christ etc.
Lincoln was opposed to slavery, as he said on innumerable occasions.
He opposed it, but was willing to make it permanent and irrevocable. Hypocrite.
Which was worse?
Lincoln's view of course. White supremacist striving for a LILY-WHITE America. Slavery would have ended.
Absolute nonense. Lincoln attended the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church while in the White House, paying annual rent on a pew, and forming a relationship with Rev. Dr. Phineas Gurley.
Absolute nonense. Lincoln attended the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church 4 - count 'em - 4 times while in the White House. 3 times in 1861, once in 1863. He reserved a pew in 1862 only. A regular saint wasn't he. Davis, Lee and Jackson rarely missed a service, even during the war.
... forming a relationship with Rev. Dr. Phineas Gurley ...
Which explains why Pastor Gurley ate with Lincoln - one time in 1864, and explains why Lincoln wrote the pastor - ZERO times.
Dr. Gurley presided over Willie Lincoln's funeral and later wrote of the President: "I have had frequent ...
Nonsense. The quote is attributed to Gurley by James A. Reed in 1873. With Lincoln walking on water and all, with him being such a good friend of Gurley, one would have thought Gurley would have seen fit to say it in 1865 or earlier.
if he was not deceived in himself, it was his intention soon to make a profession of religion.
There is no documented profession of faith. Certainly with all the men surrounding Lincoln every single day, Lincoln would have announced it. After all, as a Christian, his first act is to spread the good news. Give a speech about welcoming blacks with open arms, renouncing his views of colonization ...
The picturesque hills of New England were dotted with costly mansions, erected with money, of which the Southern planters had been despoiled, by means of the tariffs of which Mr. Benton spoke. Her harbors frowned with fortifications, constructed by the same means. Every cove and inlet had its lighthouse, for the benefit of New England shipping, three fourths of the expense of erecting which had been paid by the South, and even the cod, and mackerel fisheries of New England were bountied, on the bald pretext, that they were nurseries for manning the navy.
The South resisted this wholesale robbery, to the best of her ability. Some few of the more generous of the Northern representatives in Congress came to her aid, but still she was overborne; and the curious reader, who will take the pains to consult the "Statutes at Large," of the American Congress, will find on an average,-a tariff for every five years recorded on their pages; the cormorants increasing in rapacity, the more they devoured. No wonder that Mr. Lincoln when asked, "why not let the South go?" replied, "Let the South go! where then shall we get our revenue?" [italics in original]
Admiral Raphael Semmes, Memoirs of Service Afloat, During the War Between The States, Baltimore: Kelly, Piet & Co., 1869, p. 59.
Two [matches accounts one and three]:
When asked, as President of the United States, "why not let the South go?" his simple, direct, and honest answer revealed one secret of the wise policy of the Washington Cabinet. "Let the South go!" said he, "where, then, shall we get our revenue?" [italics in original]
Albert Taylor Bledsoe, Is Davis a Traitor; Or, Was Secession a Constitutional Right Previous To The War of 1861?, Baltimore: Innes & Company, 1866, pp. 143-144.
Three [matches accounts one and two]
In 1848, Mr. Lincoln said: "Any people whatever have the right to abolish the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right." A brave affirmation was this of the doctrine of the Declaration of Independence, that "Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed;" and one which would have commanded the united applause of the North, then and now, had the application concerned Hungary, Poland, Greece, or Mexico. But, with reference to the South, there was a most important modification of this admirable principle of equity and humanity. When asked, "Why not let the South go?" Abraham Lincoln, the President, in 1861, said: "Let the South go! Where, then, shall we get our revenue?" [italics in original]
Frank H. Alfriend, The Life Of Jefferson Davis, Cincinnati: Canton Publishing House, 1868, pp.200-201.
Four [matches accounts five and nine]:
Another effort was made to move Abraham Lincoln to peace. On the 22nd, a deputation of six members from each of the five Christian Associations of Young Men in Baltimore, headed by Dr. Fuller, and eloquent clergyman of the Baptist church, went to Washington and had an interview with the President. He received them with a sort of rude formality. Dr. Fuller said, that Maryland had first moved in adopting the constitution, and yet the first blood in this war was shed on her soil; he then interceded for a peaceful separation, entreated that no more troops should pass through Baltimore, impressed upon Mr. Lincoln the terrible responsibility resting on him - that on him depended peace or war - a fratricidal conflict or a happy settlement.
"But," said Lincoln, "what am I to do?"
"Let the country know that you are disposed to recognize the Southern Confederacy," answered Dr. Fuller, "and peace will instantly take the place of anxiety and suspense and war may be averted."
"And what is to become of the revenue?" rejoined Lincoln, "I shall have no government, no resources!" [italics in original]
Robert Reid Howison, “History of the War”, excerpted in Southern Literary Messenger, Vol. 34, Issue 8, August 1862, Richmond, VA., pp. 420-421.
Five [matches accounts four and nine]:
"But," said Mr. Lincoln, "what am I to do?" "Why, sir, let the country know that you are disposed to recognize the independence of the Southern States. I say nothing of secession; recognize the fact that they have formed a government of their own; that they will never be united again with the North, and and peace will instantly take the place of anxiety and suspense, and war may be averted."
"And what is to become of the revenue?" was the reply. "I shall have no government - no revenues."
Evert Augustus Duyckinck, National History of the War For the Union, Civil, Military and Naval. Founded on Official and Other Authentic Documents, New York: Johnson, Fry & Co., 1861, Vol. I, p. 173.
Six:
In 1861, if the erring sisters had been allowed to go in peace, was not the disturbing question of the hour: Whence is to come national revenue? Had not this very consideration much to do with the policy of coercion?
"Thus," said Mr. Lincoln, "if we allow the Southern States to depart from the Union, where shall we get the money with which to carry on the Government?"
James Battle Avirett, The Old Plantation: How We Lived in Great House and Cabin Before the War, New York: F. Tennyson Neely Co., 1901, p. 18.
Seven:
It seems obvious that Lincoln's concern over secession, "What then will become of my tariff?" was a serious matter.
Charles Adams, When in the Course of Human Events, 2000, p. 27 (from footnote: Robert L. Dabney, Memoir of a Narrative Received of Colonel John B. Baldwin, in Secular (1897; reprint, Harrisburg, VA.: Sprinkle, 1994), 94, 100).
Eight [matches acounts four, five, nine and ten]:
The Baltimore Sun [23 Apr 1861] has the following in relation to the interview between the President and a committee of the "Young Men’s Christian Association of Baltimore," it says:
We learn that a delegation from five of the Young Men's Christian Associations of Baltimore, consisting of six members from each, yesterday proceeded to Washington for an interview with the President, the purpose being to intercede with him in behalf a peaceful policy and to entreat him not to pass troops through Baltimore or Maryland. Rev. Dr. Fuller, of the Baptist church, accompanied the party by invitation as chairman.
Our informant, however, vouches for what we now write. He states that upon the introduction, they were received very cordially by Mr. Lincoln, and Dr. Fuller sought to impress upon Mr. Lincoln the vast responsibility of the position he occupied, and that upon him depended the issues of peace or war:
" 'But,' said Mr. Lincoln, ' what am I to do ?'
" 'Why, sir, let the country know that you are disposed to recognize the independence of the Southern States and war may be averted.'
" To which Mr. Lincoln replied: ' Then, what is to become of the revenue ? I shall have no government—no resources.' "
Maryland Historical Magazine, Baltimore, MD: Maryland Historical Society (1919), Vol. XIV, p. 75.
Nine [matches accounts four and five and ten]:
Still another embassy, in the interest of the secessionists of Baltimore, waited upon the President. These were delegates from five of the Young Men's Christian Associations of that city, with the Rev. Dr. fuller, of the Baptist Church, at their head. The President received them cordially, and treated them kindly. He met their propositions and their sophisms with Socratic reasoning. When Dr. Fuller assured him that he could produce peace if he would let the country know that he was "disposed to recognize the independence of the Southern States -- recognize the fact they they have formed a government of their own; and that they will never again be united with the North," the President asked, significantly, "and what is to become of the revenue?"
Benson Lossing, Pictorial Field Book of the Civil War: Journeys Through the Battlefields in the Wake of Conflict, Hartford, CN: T. Belknap, 1876, [Reprint edition Baltimore, MD: Johns Hopkins Univ Press, 1997], Vol. 1, p. 420
Ten [matches accounts four, five, eight and nine]:
Interview between Messengers of Peace and Mr. Lincoln
The Baltimore Sun has the following in relation to the interview between the President and a committee of the "Young Men’s Christian Association of Baltimore," it says:
We learn that a delegation from five of the Young Men's Christian Associations of Baltimore, consisting of six members of each, yesterday proceeded to Washington for an interview with the President, the purpose being to intercede with him in behalf a peaceful policy, and to entreat him not to pass troops through Baltimore or Maryland. The Rev. Dr. Fuller, of the Baptist church, accompanied the party, by invitation, as chairman, and the conversation was conducted mainly between him and Mr. Lincoln, and was not heard entire by all the members of the Convention.
Our informant, however, vouches for what we now write. He states that upon the introduction, they were received very cordially by Mr. Lincoln? (a sort of rude familiarity of manner ) and the conversation opened by Dr. Fuller seeking to impress upon Mr. Lincoln the vast responsibility of the position he occupied, and that upon him depended the issues, of peace or war (on one hand a terrible, fratricidal conflict, and on the other peace).
“But” said Mr. Lincoln, what am I to do?”
“Why, sir, let the country know that you are disposed to recognize the independence of the Southern States. I say nothing of secession; recognize the fact that they have formed a Government of their own; that they will never be united again with the North, and peace will instantly take the place of anxiety and suspense, and war may he averted.” “AND WHAT SHALL BECOME OF THE REVENUE? I SHALL HAVE NO GOVERNMENT?NO RESOURCES?” (Emphasis added, nott in the original)
Dr. Fuller expressed the opinion that the Northern States would constitute an imposing government and furnish revenue, but our informant could not follow the exact terms of the remark.
Memphis Daily Avalanche 8 May 1861, pg. 1.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.