Slave in Jefferson Davis' home gave Union key secrets

CNN Online ^ | 2/20/09 | Barbara Starr and Bill Mears

[JimSEA]

they both ran countries that depended on slave labor

Yep. Perfect answer.

[ejonesie22]

Oh no doubt, just as for the south there were those up north with ties to the south who helped that side. I remember reading statements attesting to that not just from Lee but from other Confederate leaders.

My main point was given the timing and such what would be the tactical value of any information vs. strategic delivered electronically. Big picture operations definitely benefited, day to day combat perhaps not so much, especially as things proceeded further South away from reliable transmission sources, or at least until such could be put in place.

[AuntB]

“Well they both ran countries that depended on slave labor.”

So did Washington, Adams, etc, etc.

For that matter so did Clinton and Bush. If what we buy from China isn’t slave labor, and if human smuggling didn’t happen they wouldn’t have had all their illegal cheap labor.

We’ve learned nothing. There are more slaves today than there were in 1861. But we ignore it because we’d rather argue about ancient history.

The Union and the Confederacy at that time both stank! Just like most politicians stink now and then. Lincoln may have been the black savior but he did all he could to destroy the American Indian.

War is always about greed. All war.

[af_vet_rr]

My main point was given the timing and such what would be the tactical value of any information vs. strategic delivered electronically. Big picture operations definitely benefited, day to day combat perhaps not so much, especially as things proceeded further South away from reliable transmission sources, or at least until such could be put in place.

Given that this was late 1861 we are talking about, the information would have been very important, big picture or not. At that point, the South was still in it and there was still a lot of uncertainty.

If this had happened in early 1864 instead, the information wouldn't have been nearly as crucial, since it was only a matter of time at that point before the South fell. Plus, by late 1863, the South was riddled with spies and scouts.

[af_vet_rr]

Again, I’ve seen no quote yet that specifically cites Davis saying “Slaves are not human” or “the negro is not a human being”.

If you hold another human being as a slave, you do not see them on the same level as you see other human beings. People can play word games, but the fact is, you can't make a slave out of another human being unless you can convince yourself into thinking they are beneath you.

It's even more disturbing when you consider the fact that a lot of the slaveholders considered themselves to be Christians, when no true Christian in his right mind, whether it be the 1860s or the 1960s, would hold another Christian in bondage.

If Davis held his slaves to be on the same level of humanity as himself, he would not have held slaves. The "man of his times" thing is just an excuse used by modern-day folks like us to pretend that our ancestors didn't know any better.

There were plenty of people of Davis' time that knew that slavery was wrong.

As a matter of fact, Jefferson Davis was in Congress in the 1840s at the same time that John Quincy Adams was, and Davis would have been very familiar with Adams trying to abolish slavery time and again in Congress.

[ejonesie22]

Yes, and at that time the strategic value was the most important because the large initial forces were in play. Remember the beginning of the war in general had a more "old fashioned” Continental look and feel. How the intel would benefit commanders during action was another matter. As the war progressed and changed in nature tactical become more important, especially as the diminish effectiveness of the Southern armies made them fall back to more skirmish/guerrilla like tactics and the North followed in kind. Not that there was any like of large scale battles to come mind you, but small unit combat really started to show it's value as well.

At this point (1861ish)there was also a very effective Southern Network as well.

I was meandering around the CIA site linked to me above, good refresher since my Civil War study days are some two decades in the past. I forgot about the recruiting going on in DC for the Confederate side. A lot of cross the lines activities for both sides.

Again though I was looking at technological issues. And there were hurdles on moving information throughout the war.

[AuntB]

“t’s even more disturbing when you consider the fact that a lot of the slaveholders considered themselves to be Christians, when no true Christian in his right mind, whether it be the 1860s or the 1960s, would hold another Christian in bondage.”

How about the 1760’s?

[Tijeras_Slim]

Illiterate doesn’t always mean stupid. Especially when it was forbidden (even a criminal act) to teach a slave to read.

[trumandogz]

So, you agree with Davis’ view that whites are a superior race?

[deannadurbin]

Gosh, the people on this thread are making Obama voters look smart! lol!

All people are SINNERS, blacks, whites, whatever. No race is superior to another.

I am simply pointing out that there are no writings of Jefferson Davis saying what the author here is claiming, that he believed this servant of his was not human.

He never wrote anything of the sort.

We have to be careful with historical revisionism. That’s my main point. It’s rampant today.

[yazoo]

“But given the time it took to get the information into the hands of anyone remotely close to Union high command, I have serious doubts as to the worth tactically or strategically.”

I think you are right on the tactical point, but I think strategically it could have been of value. Since Union generals before Grant tended to vastly over estimate the strength and size of the Confederate armies one wonders how much information was really passed. This would, it seems to me, been one of the key bits of intelligence the slave/spy would have been privy to, and passed.

[trumandogz]

Perhaps, but he was president under a constitution that specified that slaves could be owned and bought and sold.

If Davis thought that slaves were human, why is of that his constitution did not state that humans could be property?

[ottbmare]

What an exciting and fascinating story. Someone ought to use this as the basis for a novel.

[Tallguy]

If I see a document sitting on Jeff Davis desk but can’t read what good does it do me or to my spymasters? That was my point.

Some confederates, like Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson, taught their slaves to read though it was expressly against the law. Given Jefferson Davis’ public statements concerning the institution of Slavery, I think we can assume he wasn’t one of them.

[Tijeras_Slim]

Good point, and I did not know that about Stonewall Jackson, so thank you for informing me. In the case of slaves, it was often “the walls have ears”.

A Spanish proverb about servants is that they are “unavoidable enemies”, slaves would be that and more.

[af_vet_rr]

How about the 1760’s?

At any time. In the 1760s, we were still under the control of the British, so there wasn't much to be done. Even in 1775 when the colonies began to rebel, there still wasn't much that could be done. We couldn't really make a move against slavery until the 1780s during the Philadelphia (Constitutional) Convention, and we failed, although many of the northern states did the right thing and abolished it on their own.

I didn't mean to derail, but it always gets me when people act like people back then didn't know any better. There were plenty of people that knew it was wrong back then and they spoke out about it.

[deannadurbin]

It didn’t state women were property either but they were. I don’t see your point, exactly. We’re looking for an actual quote from Jefferson Davis where he said this servant of his was not human. If I don’t see that quote I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt that he did indeed think this man was human because he served him and even drove him around. Unless you’ve got a 1863 robot doing the job or a very smart horse to draw your carriage I would assume Mr. Davis knew this was a human being serving him (and as it turned out SPYING on him as well).

[af_vet_rr]

Again though I was looking at technological issues. And there were hurdles on moving information throughout the war.

It was difficult to move information around, but in some ways it was easier to obtain it and you had a larger window in which it was relevant - movement of large armies was incredibly slow, given their reliance on the large supply chains.

I think spying ran into a wall as far as speed and technology, at around the time of Sherman's and Grant's campaigns in the South. Once Sherman cut his supply chain down to nothing and went on a very fast-paced march, it was hard for the spies to give Johnston and the others enough time to react. The South would have needed a very efficient telegraph system and a large number of troops that were much more mobile than what they had. Even the balloons wouldn't have helped much, since by the time they were airborne, they would have been nearly useless.

[Non-Sequitur]

That description by Davis is no different than those you’ll see from Jefferson or Lincoln about the Indian race.

How about some examples of what Jefferson or Lincoln said about Inidans?

[the OlLine Rebel]

“They had the telegraph, you know.”

Oh, yes, I’m sure he just traipsed down to the Richmond Western Union and gave the guy his messages to relay.

;-)