The Anti-Psychotic Myth Exposed?

Psychminded.com ^ | 4/2/08 | Adam James

[gusopol3]

. See : The Things I Learned in Kindergarten, as well as the appendix And Forgot When I got My Doctorate.

[bdeaner]

I know a lot of Muslims, personally, who denounce the attacks. One of them is a guy who set me up with my wife for our first blind date. He knew I was Christian at that time, and hey I’m still alive. Why would he want us Christians to propagate, according to your logic?

[Admin Moderator]

C’mon, you can have a spirited debate without resorting to the name-calling.

[bdeaner]

Come out of the cloisterd hallways of sterile academia and experience real life, so as not to appear as you do, a lying buffoon.

You know you're losing an argument when you need to resort to baseless ad hominem attacks. By the way, I'm not just an ivory tower academic. I work with clients in the real world, thank you. My concerns grow precisely out of clinical work with real people and what I am seeing happening in the field. I've consulted with many other clinicians on this, and while not all agree with my opinions, the majority I've consulted with share my concerns.

Second, as has been discussed with you before, you're wrong to think that anti-psychotics are limited only to those patients who absolutely need them, after all other options have been exhausted. The stuff is being handed out like candy now to kids and the aged even when no serious, in-depth psychological assessment has been completed, with minimum intake interview, and even when it is contra-indicated due to side effects.

The $1.4 Billion fine paid by Eli Lilly illustrates the point clearly. The pharmaceutical companies are marketing the drugs off-label, for conditions that they were not meant to treat, and in some cases, where the side effects are far worse than the symptoms for which the drugs are used to treat. Nausea being a case in point. Many physicians are obliging the drug companies, whose reps continue to minimize the side effects. This is serious enough that many states filed suit against Lilly, and they are now paying the largest fine, for CRIMINAL CONDUCT, ever paid by a pharmaceutical company. And I am the one minimizing things? Yeah, right.

[Zevonismymuse]

I hate these meds...

Your story breaks my heart. There is a time and place for Haldol in the short term management of dangerous psychotic behavior but I do not think it should be used on a long term basis and it should never be used to manage what might be called annoying behavior, especially in the very young and the very old whose cells are so fragile. My sincerest condolences.

[Zevonismymuse]

Again the illnesses are serious and your attempts to minimize them are tragic and misguided.

I did not get the sense bdeaner was minimizing the seriousness of schizophrenia and other mental illness. I just think that our industrial approach to treating the disease is not working by any measure. bdeaner was providing some historical accounts of a more humane approach to treating the mentally ill. I worked in locked psych for a number of years and while the patients had very obvious psychotic symptoms these people were able to respond to behavioral therapies especially when the environment was peaceful. The character of the people working with the patients was also key but unfortunately there were some angry cruel people working on every ward. Sadly about a third of the patients in locked psych wards are so mentally ill that no therapy works and they must be chemically restrained for the safety of society, but this must be considered as an absolute last resort.

[agrace]

With regard to overuse - the problem as this lay person sees it is that these days, GPs are diagnosing and treating with these drugs with the encouragement of pharamceutical marketing, and psychiatrists are overprescribing all psychotropics (it seems to me that many don’t seem to do much therapy these days, opting instead for drugs as first choice treatment for just about everything).

I can understand use of these in the most severe cases (such as the one you cite), but should someone diagnosed (misdiagnosed, as it turned out) with a lesser mental illness such as bipolar 2 be given a cocktail of antidepressants and anti-psychotics?

I have personal experience with watching someone go from somewhat anxious (enough to warrant a dr visit) to severely anxious, agitated and paranoid (after the introduction of ADs), to downright psychotic and completely disfunctional (after the introduction of antipsychotics).

Here was the progression - zoloft = agitation and insomnia —> wellbutrin = agitation, insomnia, anxiety attacks, racing thoughts, akathisia, paranoia, desperate thoughts —> diagnosis of BP2 + effexor = psychotic reaction + alarmed GP —> lesser effexor dose + risperdal + referral to psychiatrist —> cymbalta + wellbutrin + seroquel = passed out zombie —> cymbalta + wellbutrin + lamictal = increasing neuro effects + job loss —> cymbalta + wellbutrin + depakote = daily neuro effects + mild nightly psychosis —> cymbalta + wellbutrin + the suggestion of lithium, but upon balking of the patient, return to seroquel —> rejection of psychiatric advice, slow weaning off all drugs, second opinion and rejection of initial diagnosis = drug free and happier for it one year later.

I’m sure that sounds crazy, but every word is true, and as a result of my desperate studies on all involved I have to ask, how many low level patients who should just be in therapy to deal with life issues (in this case, the unexpected sudden death of his mother due to a massive stroke combined with a family move and a high pressure sales job) are put on drugs that do nothing but harm them in the long run?

I’m thanking God every day that our experiences were short-lived, because articles such as this one - knowing that these kinds of drugs are the most prescribed class in America today, knowing that at least 10% of the entire US population is on psychotropics of some kind, knowing that these drugs are often prescribed for off-label use for things such as bipolar 2, chronic pain, and incontinence, for Pete’s sake - are downright frightening.

(This article deals with anti-psychotics, but studies on the effects of messing with seratonin levels are just as alarming.)

In severe cases are they a good idea? Sure, maybe. In such a large percentage of the general population? Not on your life. Or should I say, not on their lives.

[Zevonismymuse]

Now most of these people are functioning in society, and the mental hospital population is a fraction of what it was.

Well you are half right; the mental hospital population is down but I don't think I agree that most of these people are functioning in society. Where I live they live under bushes and hang out on State Street accosting tourists.

[Zevonismymuse]

I'm not saying that brain chemistry abnormalities are the cause of all our failings, unhappiness, and poor judgment, but I do believe that there clearly are people who very unfortunately have abnormalities in brain chemistry and that this has a big effect on their mental health

Or perhaps behavior changes the brain chemistry. This is a kind of "which came first; chicken or the egg?" loop.

[dmz]

But you cannot possibly be suggesting that anti-psychotics should NEVER be used, are you?

I can only speak for my own experience. My mother is bipolar and has had 3 psychotic breaks in the last ten years, leading to our having her involuntarily committed. The last 2 resulted from her stopping her meds, the first time was prior to her having been diagnosed as bipolar.

Getting her back on her bipolar meds has been entirely insufficient for repairing the pyschotic break. It has only been with the introduction of the anti-psychotics that she is able to get better and get out of the hospital.

That you believe as you do is no issue to me, have read these sentiments for years now here at FR, wherein a sizable anti-psychiatric meds population lives.

Clearly there is much unknown about brain chemistry and function. It is why the first few months after mom was released from the hospital the first time that there was almost weekly adjustments to her medication cocktail. And then they got it right (which is to say, allowed her to function ‘normally’ again).

This issue just seems to be anything but binary, either-or. Lots of gray in the area.

[Tidbit]

Your problem I stopped reading for content right there. However,scanning your reply I notice that later in your post you are shouting at me in bolded text, which I consider to be the poorest of cyber manners. One might be tempted to conclude that YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU ARE RUDE!

And taking a discussion on the web a tad too seriously, I might add, dude.

[dmz]

You know you're losing an argument when you need to resort to baseless ad hominem attacks.

Now that is just funny.

bdeaner (#28 this thread): "You sound like one of those drug rep whores" or this one (#37 this thread): "I suspect your psychology is not that different from the guys who rammed those planes into the towers on that day".

I don't take issue with your beliefs as stated on this thread. It's a great big world, and frankly, I suspect that (as is often the case) the truth lies somewhere in between the position you have staked out and the position taken by those you argue against.

But for you to pretend that you are being victimized by vicious ad hominems, while remaining lilly white pure yourself, is, as demonstrated, laughable.

[bdeaner]

But you cannot possibly be suggesting that anti-psychotics should NEVER be used, are you?

No, I never suggested that anti-psychotics should NEVER be used. I'm suggesting they should be used rarely and as a last resort, after careful diagnosis based on a valid assessment process and after less dangerous interventions have been explored. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

[bdeaner]

You have yet to mount any factual evidence to counter my factual statements. So, that's pretty much all that matters. The ad hominems, whomever directed what statement to whom, is irrelevant to the facts.

My comments about "drug rep whores" was somewhat inflammatory, I admit. But I think the statement is accurate, that drug reps basically prostitute themselves. They sell their souls for the income. That's my opinion.

Second, with regard to #37, the poster himself admitted that he has committed himself to the mass genocide of Muslims. Read what the guy wrote. How is that different in kind from the radical, violent Islamic groups who want to kill us? Both are examples objectively of hate, and not an ad hominem because it was directly related to the issue under discussion.

[bdeaner]

And taking a discussion on the web a tad too seriously, I might add, dude.

If you were to read the statement seriously, of course you'd have to come to the realization that your statements were in grave error, and that the study, if anything, supports the view that the drugs alter brain function, which is what they're supposed to do anyway -- whether that is for good and ill. So, the findings are meaningless with regard to any conclusions on the physiological etiology or basis for bipolar disorder.

[dmz]

I provided a personal anecdote, a story about my own family’s experience with my mother’s mental illness, and the medications used to allow her to resume normal functioning in society. No factual evidence to counter your factual statements. None will be forthcoming, at least not from me. My mom was hospitalized, took meds, and came home.

They were anti-psychotics. They worked.

I cannot pretend to know that they will work in all cases. I do know for a fact, though, that they do, in some cases, work. That’s all.

[bdeaner]

How long has your mother been taking the anti-psychotic medication? Just curious.

[bdeaner]

Also, do you know what brand of anti-psychotic she is taking? And what was her diagnosis?

Again, just curious.