Posted on 01/28/2009 12:31:29 PM PST by ChocChipCookie
We have recently cubed the number of guns we had four months ago and are shopping for gun safes. We're also trying to figure out where to put them in the house, thinking we'd like a safe of some sort at each end. Any suggestions for brand names, styles of safes, and good locations? We have two children, ages 7 and 9, who are fairly gun savvy, but we still need to keep the guns secure.
That's for some of my guns. I have others out and just high up where the little guy can't reach. One in each room of the house. Including my 12 ga pump in a standard 1 gun wall rack above the closet door.
I wish a sumbitch would try to break in..LOL
FWIW, I own a largeish American Security safe with a simple mechanical dial combination. It is on the cheap side in terms of gun safes at under $1000, which means that it has external hinges (which a dedicated attacker could cut off with a half-an-hour and some air tools). It has provisions to be bolted to the floor, but full it probably weighs close to 900lbs, so no one is moving it unless they are determined, prepared and have help. Like all safety measures, it’s designed to deter casual attackers, not stop an attack by a determined professional. In it I have my gun collection, important personal documents, and my shta cash and precious metal supply.
For my nightstand gun, I have a push-button (i.e., all mechanical) locking steel gun box with 4 combination buttons on top. I don’t know the name, but it was made in the u.s., was recommended by a master locksmith, does not have an exposed joint that could be easily pried, and feels much studier than a gun-vault (and much, much sturdier, than a stack-on).
IIRC, Kalifornia requires that you buy a trigger lock with a gun (trigger locks without cables running through the action are useless, btw) or sign an affadavit indicating that you have a gun safe from an approved list.
The best safe you can get is the one you can get the soonest. Sams club has Winchester safes. 800# of insulated steel safe with can be bolted to the floor. Your choice of electronic of combo locks,,,5 bolt door. They hold about 24 long guns, plus plus. They do everything that the “name” brands do for half the money.
Actually, they are one of the name brands. Winchester does not make safes, nor does Browning or Remington.
I used to sell Heritage safes and found them comparable to brands that cost 30% more. Just keep in mind that a safe is not a rapid access device. Its purpose is to make it difficult to steal the contents and protect them from fire. You might even have trounle opening an electronic lock under pressure.
GunVault has a new model that keys to the print on your index finger. You can set it for multiple users. They sell a two gun model.
Whatever you get, make sure you bolt it down and you leave a space between the floor and the bottom of the safe. This is to keep it from trapping water, which rots out the steel. Our safe mover had plenty of stories of safes tipping and leaving the contents neatly stacked on the floor. Your safe should be drilled for lag bolts to secure it to the floor. I think the best way to secure the bolts is to put a wheel bearing at each bolt.
I got the Heritage for fire protection first (there was a 17,000 acre forest fire about five miles away last year), and then security.
Finally, at 1000 lbs empty, I plan on getting buried in it and picking 6 folks I really dislike.... :)
I just went through a revelation on this, and you are wise to be seeking advice.
Here are some thoughts:
1. Don’t get an electronic keypad. They fail. Mine did last month after five years of infrequent use (so did Michael Bane’s - Google “Bane Cannon Safe” for the story.) I was lucky in that it failed unlocked. Others are not so lucky.
2. There is serious debate about the different types/brands of safes. My sense now is that most of them are overrated, even the top advertised brands, and are of uncertain effectiveness. Did you know that $10,000 Swiss watches often have $100 movements inside? Have a safe fail, and a visit from a locksmith to look behind the felt padding, and you’ll feel the same way.
3. Most safes are sheet metal wrapped around checks of drywall. A fire axe can break in. My top name safe (I’m not revealing the brand, because they all use the same inexpensive locks and questionable construction techniques) had broken drywall pieces in the door, that didn’t fit very well.
4. Go to YouTube and view how easy a “good” safe is to open. It will change your views. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M (Start at about 2:30 for the interesting part).
5. Consider the alternatives to the big advertisers. The advertising and the dealer network eats up much of the value of what you are paying for. Instead, look at small timers like http://www.sturdysafe.com (I ended up buying from them - you’ll get a bargain on shipping in CA) and http://graffundersafes.com/ (expensive, and clearly worth it - half-inch-think plate is their lightest safe, which 3/16” is Ft. Knox’ heaviest.) Graffunder might be 3x the cost of others, but if you need it, you’ll know. Sturdy is close, with FAR lower cost - a small family business that sells by word of mouth. I went with sturdy because I could talk to the designer/builder/owner. My locksmith recommends Amsec, and while I consider that he sells them, I find them a better bet than all the consumer brands. My locksmith said that he’s unsure of Sturdy’s fire rating, but I suspect that it’s because they don’t pay the “testing mafia” for the ratings. I was persuaded by the info on their website.
6. Visit jewelry stores, pawnshops, and gun dealers to see what real safes look like. They generally don’t use the consumer name brands you are considering.
7. Consider getting a crappy (nice and shiny, with the stupid gold plate options) decoy safe, put in an obvious location (garage?) filled with crappy cheap surplus guns and old tools. Hide the real safe containing valuables elsewhere.
8. Be sure to bolt it down.
You must be mistaken; there is no way you made it through childhood without government mandated locks. Clearly you are an abused child and hiding the scars from your abusive family environment :-)
LOL!
FWIW, I own a largeish American Security safe with a simple mechanical dial combination. It is on the cheap side in terms of gun safes at under $1000, which means that it has external hinges (which a dedicated attacker could cut off with a half-an-hour and some air tools).
Also, in response to other posters, don’t assume that a safe with a famous gun maker name is made by that company. They often license out the name, and the safes are made by someone else. Not saying that;’s good or bad, but part of your money pays for the brand name, not the construction.
I know a few gun shops that keep one or two pistols loaded and available with these.
With kids, I wouldn’t use one at home.
Otherwise pretty cool.
You’d be worse off with the fingerprint ID thingy.
I know people that have these on their computers and they constantly curse.
When the adrenaline hits, you sweat.
Or, you’re making cookies.
Either way, your fingerprints aren’t always pristine.
Really, I practice with my safe ever so often, just to be sure.
Five seconds, MAX.
bump
Here’s more. My locksmith explained that he has a tool that can open any safe. It’s a motorized “hand” that tries all the combos. So you think that with three numbers in the combo, and 100 positions on the dial, that would require 100x100x100=1,000,000 tries to be sure? Sorry, but those $100 locks in the $1000-5000 safes are designed to accept offset errors of 1 unit, so it need to try only every third combo, or 33x33x33=36000 combos. At 10 per minute (maybe it goes faster) that’s 3600 minutes, or 60 hours. The locksmith says it takes only a few hours typically, so my numbers are off a bit. I suspect that the margin for error is more than 1.
Check out this good article:
http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2008/10/safe-storage-of-firearms.html
Personally, If I had ammunition in large quantities, I probably would not store them all in one place, especially in the safe in the bedroom closet.
But then, alas, I only had one old, useless, antique firearm, and that was stolen from be on January 20th of this year.
Sturdy, simple and MANUAL.
Don’t get anything that relies on electricity or keypads. A hand operated combination lock will work even when the power is out, the batteries are dead and the transistors are fried.
It won’t look sexy and won’t impress your friends but at least you can get your guns out after the earthquake while protecting the kids.
Several thoughts on this based on my decision-making when I bought mine a few years ago:
1) Always buy a safe MUCH larger than you think you will need. It is amazing how many valuable items (other than guns) that you will discover in your house after your safe arrives! And guns seem to breed more guns when confined in close proximity to each other...at least that is what seems to happen to everyone I know who has purchased a gun safe.
2) If you ain’t gonna bolt it down, don’t waste your money. Nowadays, most burglarized safes are removed from the home by thieves so they can open the safe at their leisure in the comfort of their own garage. (Yes, it can be moved by one or two people....) Bolt it down! To concrete is best, but even to a wood floor is better than nothing. If you don’t choose to bolt it down, you will want to leave a safe dolly propped up against the wall next to the safe. That way, the family of the burglar who tips you safe while stealing it and has it fall on him will not be able to sue you for wrongful death, alleging that you created a hazardous working environment for their dear son.
3) Side and top walls are usually the walls attacked by thieves who try to enter a safe. Most of the major safe companies market the thickness of their doors in inches, while they downplay the sides, tops and bottoms, which have a steel thickness which is measured by “gauge”. Most of these “gauge” (read: “thin”) steels can be cut easily with an ax or a cold chisel. For this reason, I bought a safe with quarter-inch thick steel on all sides with full welds on all seams, and another with half-inch thick steel all the way around. A thief would be able to eventually get in to even these (given enough time), but he will at least have to break a sweat to do it, and he won’t be able to use a pair of tin snips.
4) Bolt it down!
5) My locksmith advises against electronic locks, and he gives good reasons for his advice: Not only do electronic locks have a lower reliability than mechanical locks, but if we get a true SHTF event involving a nuclear weapon, (and assuming you survive) the EMP will fry the lock circuits, leaving you with an attractive steel sculpture that you will not be able to open without borrowing some heavy duty tools from your neighborhood burglar. Not a lot of point to having firearms and ammo in case of any emergency if you can’t access them. Use a lockbox with an electronic lock for a single handgun for quick access, and then (to paraphrase Clint Smith’s famous quote)use your handgun to shoot your way to the rifle in your gunsafe, if needed.
6) Consider buying your safe from one of the many smaller custom or semi-custom makers out there. I bought one of mine from Drake Safe Compnay in Roxboro, NC. Not only was it MUCH cheaper than a “big name” safe, but it was better built and the interior and paint was made to my custom specs too. I have been very pleased with my Drake safe, but I am sure there are other makers out their who make excellent products.
7) Did I mention bolting the gun safe down??
Best wishes!
OtG
One that is heavy and bolted to the foundation of the house. Fireproof is an added bonus.
> Most crooks are in for a quick snatch, so a bolted down lock box will work<
Even if it’s bolted down they can still get what’s inside.
The looters hit our place a couple of days ago.
They pried the safe open and took what was inside.
My worst fear is they’ll kick the door in at 3 AM and try to get us to open the BIG safe that they unsuccessfully tried to open.
We probably wouldn’t live through that.
BTW, the one they got into was one of those small bolt in deals with a key pad.
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