Replies

“I don’t know.”

Figures.

“seriousness of such an insult”

The guy was a journalist, not a spokesman for the democratically elected government.

“but the people who wound up in power are a bunch of miserable Islamic ingrates “

The people who wound up in power have joined us in marginalizing the Sunni and Shia extremists.

“Name one Arabic Islamic Democracy which is successful.”

Exactly. Our achievement is unprecedented. It shows how absurd the nay-sayers are who are still trying to claim that Iraq is a failure. And they are foolish enough to try to politicize a shoe thowing incident by a journalist as proof of their poorly thought out conclusion.

“I’m not impressed.”

Of course not. You are in denial that Iraq is even a democratic state, despite the unanimous declaration of the P-5.

“Neither are the thousands of homeless Assyrian and Chaldean Christians...”

The crimes you sight are not sanctioned by the democratically elected government and thus are nothing more than fallacious arguments.

“You can’t assume that all people everywhere are fit to govern themselves”

You adhere to cultural condescension.

“The best functioning democracy which ever existed is ours. And it didn’t get handed to us..”

It didn’t get handed to the Iraqis. They fought against both al-Qaeda and Iranian backed militias who were attempting to undermine their democratic state. They joined efforts with coalition members to fight against these elements. We had foreign assistance in our struggle as well.

“The guy was a journalist, not a spokesman for the democratically elected government.”

The guy was a Muslim, insulting our President, and, by extension, America, in a very visible manner and demeaning manner in an Islamic Country.

It was not an occasion for lighthearted levity or a simple brush off as Bush attempted to portray it. It was a serious insult and was so interpreted by the Islamic masses who saw it and approved of it.

“The people who wound up in power have joined us in marginalizing the Sunni and Shia extremists.”

The term “extreme” is a relative one, particularly when referring to Muslims.

“Exactly. Our achievement is unprecedented. It shows how absurd the nay-sayers are who are still trying to claim that Iraq is a failure. And they are foolish enough to try to politicize a shoe thowing incident by a journalist as proof of their poorly thought out conclusion.”

Like I said, come back in ten years and if this is still a pro-American government (assuming it is a pro-American government NOW) and I'll concede the point.

“Of course not. You are in denial that Iraq is even a democratic state, despite the unanimous declaration of the P-5.”

Right. Democracies are based on certain principles concerning minority rights. If these are not followed, it isn't a Democracy, its government by a mob - which is the only one of three types of government in Islamic nations. The other two are anarchy and military dictatorship, all of them generally with theological overtones.

“The crimes you sight are not sanctioned by the democratically elected government and thus are nothing more than fallacious arguments.”

Hardly. A democratic government doesn't allow religious persecution of thousands of its citizens without stopping it. But then Islamic governments are notorious for looking the other way while Muslims beat up Christians, Jews and other non-Muslims - check out Iran, Pakistan and Egypt among many others.

“You adhere to cultural condescension.”

No. I adhere to cultural analysis and Democracy, in the sense that term is interpreted by the culture which created it, and its use in Islam, are totally incompatible.

“It didn’t get handed to the Iraqis. They fought against both al-Qaeda and Iranian backed militias who were attempting to undermine their democratic state. They joined efforts with coalition members to fight against these elements. We had foreign assistance in our struggle as well.”

I think it was more a case of spoon-feeding by the west to a group of primitives with absolutely no concept of what democracy means.

I don't like Muslims, I don't trust them and I don't trust Muslim governments. As a non-Muslim, the preponderance of the weight of historical evidence substantiates my views.

Where I part ways with Bush is where the battle to remove a dangerous dictator became an American crusade to experiment in nation building at great financial and personal cost to this country. It was a failure brought on by the neo-cons and their flawed view of Islam and Islamic society. Muslims aren't just like non-Muslims except for the name of their god, their holy book and they way they dress. They think and behave very differently than we do and are motivated by other goals than motivate us.

Time may prove me wrong and we may very see Iraq evolve into a useful ally in the battle against terror and militant Islam. But I think the weight of recent events and historical precedence weighs strongly against it.

We are in a war and the war is with Islam. Some individual Muslims may prove useful tools to us, as they always have in the past in struggles between Muslims and non-Muslims. But that usefulness is very qualified and limited to the time when they are personally benefiting from that relationship. Once that personal benefit ends, they will revert to the normal state of hostility with non-Muslims.