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Simple question: 401(k) seizure.....isn't this an ex post facto law?
Me ^ | 11/7/2008 | Me

Posted on 11/07/2008 5:50:37 AM PST by Red in Blue PA

And if not, why not?

You cannot have a law which says that people adding to their accounts have money which is theirs and THEN pass a law which confiscates this money.

From everything I learned in school that would qualify as an ex post facto law. Where am I going wrong?

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TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 401k
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To: count-your-change
Not everyone's gold was seized; only those who complied!

(There are plenty of US gold coins dating before the 1930s to prove it!)

61 posted on 11/07/2008 6:58:33 AM PST by ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY ( The Constitution needs No interpreting, only APPLICATION!)
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To: prplhze2000

You forgot to add that the financial services industry will be devastated as a result. Without a tax incentive for future contributions or employer matches, cash inflows will dry up. And then there is the matter of the treatment of other types of qualified retirement plans (403b’s 401a’s, 457 plans, etc.). What about ERISA provisions for both defined benefit and defined contributions - how will these be affected? And who is going to pay for the difference between present valuation and the GRA guarantee? Well, that’s an easy one: we all are.


62 posted on 11/07/2008 6:58:45 AM PST by andy58-in-nh (Liberty has few friends, many enemies, and no adequate substitute.)
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To: ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY

In 1933 there some folks that thought the gold that they had bought and paid for was theirs too. SURPRIZE!


63 posted on 11/07/2008 7:00:45 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY
Not everyone's gold was seized; only those who complied! (There are plenty of US gold coins dating before the 1930s to prove it!

Obvious civil-disobedience-model-for-use-today ping!
64 posted on 11/07/2008 7:00:58 AM PST by Infidel Puppy
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To: Red in Blue PA

The Nazis passed laws covering what they did.

Taking our money will be a piece of cake.


65 posted on 11/07/2008 7:01:50 AM PST by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: greedo
Why can plan participants take a lump sum distribution (minus substantial taxes and penalties) any time before age 59 ½ if it's not their money?

If a plan allowed that, it would not qualify as a 401k plan. As long as the money is in the plan it's not yours. Once the plan allows you to take it out and you take the money out of the plan it becomes yours - and then you owe the tax on it (and maybe penalties).

Most 401k plans let you take the money out if you leave the employ of the plan sponsor but they don't have to allow that. And most plans will let you take an in-service distribution at age 60 or older but they don't have to do that either.

66 posted on 11/07/2008 7:02:15 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: mgc1122
While your point is made about FDR, your time may be better spent using a spell checker.

Oh no, a typo ... I guess I'll just have to slink back to my double-wide ... I'm not worthy.

67 posted on 11/07/2008 7:02:26 AM PST by tx_eggman ("The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule" - Mencken)
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To: count-your-change

Exactly, and FDR took the gold with the stroke of a pen on,IIRC,an executive order. Then he turned around and devalued the gold from $20/oz to $35/oz hence reducing the value of our currency by 40%. So taking our 401K’s is what I call Social Security Mark II.


68 posted on 11/07/2008 7:08:03 AM PST by biff
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To: trad_anglican
You're talking out of both sides of your mouth on this.

What you are arguing is that any funds that you deposit in a time account (CDs, Bonds, etc.) are not yours, which is ludicrous!

The 401k money is YOURS; you may withdraw it at anytime, but you must pay tax on the full amount of the withdrawal plus penalty interest.

69 posted on 11/07/2008 7:09:32 AM PST by ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY ( The Constitution needs No interpreting, only APPLICATION!)
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To: trad_anglican
This is the first I have heard of this. I must been living in a cave.

So let me get this straight. The government wants to take my 401 from the employers control to the government control? Another Social Sec scheme where the government does a IOW. Unbelievable.

70 posted on 11/07/2008 7:10:23 AM PST by Orange1998
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To: ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY

Here’s the code. Researching now.

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00000401——000-.html


71 posted on 11/07/2008 7:13:18 AM PST by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
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To: biff

Maybe I’m not thinking clearly...
If you devalue something, it’s worth less; meaning that it takes fewer dollars/marks/pounds/yen to buy it.

So, gold was REVALUED and the dollar was devalued as a result. Right?


72 posted on 11/07/2008 7:16:23 AM PST by ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY ( The Constitution needs No interpreting, only APPLICATION!)
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To: ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY
What you are arguing is that any funds that you deposit in a time account (CDs, Bonds, etc.) are not yours, which is ludicrous!

I'm arguing no such thing. I'm only talking about 401k plans. Please read what I actually write or I'm going to ignore your responses.

73 posted on 11/07/2008 7:20:24 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Executive Order 6102 is an Executive Order signed on April 5, 1933 by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt “forbidding the Hoarding of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificates.” It required all persons to deliver on or before May 1, 1933 all gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates owned by them to the Federal Reserve. Under the Trading With the Enemy Act of October 6, 1917, as amended on March 9, 1933, violation of Executive Order 6102 was punishable by fine up to $10,000 ($166,640 if adjusted for inflation as of 2008) or up to ten years in prison, or both. Because of this forced immediate sale of gold to the Federal Reserve at the government set price of $20.67 per ounce, this Executive Order is often referred to as the Gold Confiscation of 1933. Shortly after this forced sale, the price of gold from the treasury for international transactions was raised to $35 an ounce; the U.S. government thereby devalued the U.S. dollar by 41%.


74 posted on 11/07/2008 7:20:46 AM PST by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
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To: Orange1998
So let me get this straight. The government wants to take my 401 from the employers control to the government control? Another Social Sec scheme where the government does a IOW. Unbelievable.

That's the proposal that was put before the committee. I don't know how seriously it's being considered but that is what was proposed by the woman who testified.

75 posted on 11/07/2008 7:23:28 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY

Coins deemed rare and of special interest were allowed but guess who decided the definitions. From the Act,

“(b) Gold coin and gold certificates in an amount not exceeding in the aggregate $100.00 belonging to any one person; and gold coins having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins.”

Gold was valued at about $20 an ounce at the time.


76 posted on 11/07/2008 7:25:45 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: biff
The currency had been radically increased in value through massive deflation. Although the money had immense value no one would manufacture/grow/produce anything for sale at any price because it was costing more to make it than you could get by selling it.

That is to say, there was more value in keeping money in your pocket than spending it,or investing it.

The 40% devaluation turned out to be BS. Deflation is such a powerful force that once under way man's piddling efforts to use inflation to fight it are insufficient.

Everything Roosevelt did served only to deepen and extend the Great Depression.

He had the same bad advisors who'd told Hoover what to do, and who are now telling Obama what to do.

77 posted on 11/07/2008 7:31:05 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: ilgipper

We are about to enter four years of smug lefties laughing at pissed off America.


78 posted on 11/07/2008 7:31:40 AM PST by BenLurkin
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To: abb

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=14611&st=&st1=
34 - Executive Order 6102 - Requiring Gold Coin, Gold Bullion and Gold Certificates to Be Delivered to the Government
April 5, 1933

http://www.answers.com/topic/gold-reserve-act
The act also authorized the president to devalue the gold dollar so that it would have no more than 60 percent of its existing weight. Under this authority the president, on 31 January 1934, fixed the value of the gold dollar at 59.06 cents.


79 posted on 11/07/2008 7:32:55 AM PST by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
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To: abb

That’s what I thought. The government bought gold for $20/oz and then revalued it at $35/oz thus devaluing the dollar.


80 posted on 11/07/2008 7:39:36 AM PST by ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY ( The Constitution needs No interpreting, only APPLICATION!)
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