Posted on 10/02/2008 9:10:00 AM PDT by nateriver
“A Sheriff revoked the concealed handgun permit of a woman who insisted on open carrying her gun to her daughter’s soccer games”. Is the Open Carry movement making matters worse for legal gun owners?
(Excerpt) Read more at regularfolksunited.com ...
BSA is a PRIVATE group. Your example is not germane to the discussion.
I don't want it to be a matter of surprise. To be a matter of surprise, the perp must have already initiated his attack, which now places lives in danger and which I must act dangerously in turn to stop.
Much better that the perp know before he chooses a would-be victim, deterred because he KNOWS, and knows early, that the odds are NOT in his favor. Sure, he may know who to target first - but if his targeted attack is not completely & immediately successful, his estimated lifespan becomes very short for obvious reasons.
Rarely is the expected loot/payoff great enough for a criminal to take non-trivial terminal risk. In mundane activity, better to advertise goblin repellent - it works much better than actually having to use it.
My point is that neither the article nor the debate over open carry is about its tactical soundness, so all the arguments about that aspect (on either side) are irrelevant. The point is whether we have a right to carry openly, and if so whether we should exercise that right.
There are plenty of people, maybe even some here arguing against open carry, who carry .25 or .32 "pocket pistols". I could say that it's tactically unsound to carry a caliber smaller than 9mm. But that would have no bearing on whether those people can and should carry their .32 pistols.
Actually I have heard from people who know Ms. Haim. She normally open carries as a matter of course. She had done that at prior soccer games. The head of the leageue is an ex judge who did liked open and CCW . He complained. Prior to this she never had a complaint.This is at a public park which PA law allows open carry. He tried to tell her she can not carry at the games. She told him that he had no authority since PA is an open carry state and he can not make up laws to stop people at the park from carrying.
Yes and Yes.
Art 1 Sec 8 powers regulating the active duty militia have nothing to do with inactive militia/civilian carry issues. In that case, Art 2A stands as Supreme Law of the Land. Further, local statutes are pre-empted via Art 6 para 2.
Ergo, if the Courts were still ruling as if bound by Art 6's "judges of every State shall be bound thereby", then they'd be striking idiotic gun controls laws down all over the Country.
As for whether we should carry openly, yes. For all the reasons I've already stated.
Correction the ex judge disliked open carry.
The question is do you have the right to carry or not?
If yes then she was within her rights. It does not matter if it disconcerted some other people. My right of free speech does not get constrained if you get offended or disturbed.
Ms Haim did not brandish she was just carry a gun- no big deal. Something she does all the time.
Soon our opinions won’t be worth all the fly chit on the windows of Congress.
Other than that, they feel safe to ignore us and do as they please. This idiot ex-Judge and his opinion of someone exercising a Right he personally doesn't like, and the Sheriff sucking up to him over it, easily show the rot in the system.
After all, what are we going to do? Resist them? String him up? March on Washington, DC? Yeah... not seeing that happen any time soon.
I haven’t seen anything indicating that this event is actually open to the public at large, but for the sake of argument I’ll assume it is (some kids’ sports contests charge admission, and that can trigger behavior requirements posted at the entrance or stated on the ticket-back or free program, but I’m guessing that this preschoolers’ game doesn’t command admission fees). If the league is a privately organized one, then it can set conditions on participation, including rules for parents attending practices and games. While a member of the general public might be free to respond to an on-field flub by one of the 4-5 year old players by hollering “Kid you’re such a loser, you should do the team a favor and quit soccer!”, the league is probably well within its rights per the agreement parents sign when they register their kids in the league, to eject a league player’s parent who hollers the same thing. Legally, the devil is in the details, and we’ve actually seen very few of the details that would shed light on the legal aspects of this incident.
How about this then? http://www.paopencarry.org/lebanon/meleaniehainappeal.pdf
IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS LEBANON COUNTY,
PENNSYLVANIA CIVIL DIVISION
Meleanie Hain,
Appellant :
::
V.
::
Michael J. DeLeo :
Sheriff of Lebanon County :
Appeal of Revocation of License Issued pursuant to Pa.C.S.A. §6109
And now comes the appellant above-named, by and through her counsel, Worth, Magee and Fisher, P.C. and files this Appeal from the Decision of the Sheriff of Lebanon County to revoke the License previously issued by the Sheriff to the Appellant pursuant to §6109 of the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act (“UFA”) and, in support thereof, states the following:
In February 2007, upon application of the Appellant, the Sheriff of
Lebanon County, after conducting the investigation set forth in §6109(d) of the UFA, issued to the Appellant a License to Carry a Concealed Firearm;
Thereafter, by letter dated September 17, 2008, the Sheriff purported to revoke that license. A true and correct copy of the revocation notice is attached hereto as Exhibit “A”;
While the applicable provisions of the UFA does provide the Sheriff with authority to revoke such a license once issued, such revocation can only take place “for good cause shown” or if the licensee falls into a particular category of individuals specifically set forth in §6109(i);
Furthermore, the UFA provides that the notice of revocation shall state the specific reason for revocation;
The appellant herein does not fall into any of the specifically enumerated categories of individuals who have lost their eligibility for the License, and it is respectfully submitted that legally and openly carrying a firearm and thereby “upsetting” some individuals who observed such does not constitute the “good cause” contemplated by the statute;
Accordingly, it is submitted that the Sheriff of Lebanon County abused his discretion and the authority granted to him under the UFA, committed an error of law and otherwise acted illegally by revoking the license previously issued to the Appellant.
WHEREFORE, the appellant request this honorable court to reverse the decision of the Sheriff and to order the Sheriff of Lebanon County to reissue the license under §6109 of the UFA.
Respectfully submitted,
_____________________________
Robert J. Magee, Esquire
Worth, Magee & Fisher, P.C.
2610 Walbert Avenue
Allentown, PA 18104
(610) 437-4896
ID No. 30911
Does that do anything for you?
1. League rules make no mention whatsoever of firearms.
2. League President (Tim Beard) has acknowledged as much, and stated that the local director (Nigel Foundling) did not speak for the League on this issue.
3. At least here in Pa., leasing such a space does NOT dissolve the preemptive protection from municipal regulation.
I don’t question Ms Haim’s or any other law abiding citizen’s right to carry, openly or concealed.
I do question the right of communities and states to issue permits to carry a weapon. State and local governments should no more be allowed to require a permit to carry a weapon, concealed or openly, than they should be allowed to issue a permit to carry a bible, concealed or openly.
Having said that, I do question the wisdom of carrying a weapon openly on your person in a lot of situations. If you are closing up a warehouse at 2 in the morning open carry may be a wise choice but at a kid’s soccer game? Somehow I doubt it. If the soccer field is that dangerous she should get her kid into a nice chess club.
Also, some of the arguments on this thread have bordered on the irrational; displaying a lack of knowledge or wanton disregard for human behavior, culture and common sense. It makes me wonder if some people should even be around firearms.
What’s it supposed to “do” for me? It’s just a court pleading which doesn’t address any of the questions of fact which I pointed out are relevant to whether there was any justification for removing her from the place where the game was being played, or for pulling her carry permit. Had she signed an agreement when she registered her child for the league, to abide by some printed code of conduct for parents and/or to abide by decisions of league officials re parent conduct at games and practices? If she had, and then refused to either put the gun away or leave the game area when asked to do so by a league official, then she’s got a real legal problem.
>I could say that it’s tactically unsound to carry a caliber smaller than 9mm.<
I personally think that your capability with the weapon should be the deciding factor regarding your carry weapon.
Considering the number of posts we have hit on and commented to each other lately, we must be cut from the same cloth or something... I clicked on "post a reply" (in order to strongly agree) before I even looked to see to whose post I was replying! Then I looked to see who had written it and it was you! Once again, YOU ARE DEAD ON WITH THAT STATEMENT!
Regards,
Raven6
PS: My wife has always said that if there was more than one person that thought the way I did that the world would be in real trouble... I think I may tell her that she can start worrying anytime now!
Yes, but as my next post copies over... There is nothing in the League Rules prohibiting legal carry of firearms.
At all...
Period.
So really, you argument kinda falls apart at that point.
Some power hungry nit-wit decided to make a stink because he doesn't like firearms carried by civilians.
End of story.
Now, you can either try and excuse the unlawful behavior on the part of the ex-Judge and the Sheriff, or you can stop trying to excoriate this woman for exercising her Rights. Your choice...
Still don’t know if the league rules require compliance with requests by league officials at games and practices, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there is such a provision, given the widespread problems with misbehaving parents at kids sports activities. Leagues are hard-pressed to define in writing every type of behavior they would want to prohibit, and so are likely to put in a “comply with reasonable requests” provision. While not everybody agrees on what constitutes “reasonable”, a court might well find that if multiple parents are complaining to league officials that they don’t like seeing this woman openly carrying a firearm at the games, that it’s “reasonable” for the league officials to require this parent to cease and desist from open carrying at the games. The league has a legitimate interest in keeping the majority of parents content with the atmosphere at the games and practices, since parents may pull their kids out otherwise, and presumably the purpose of the league is to provide opportunities for as many children as possible to play soccer. Now if the league is receiving any government funding, it would be on shakier ground, but still might prevail in court. My guess is that a local jury would find that it was reasonable for the league to prohibit open-carry at its games.
I never wore a gun to my child's soccer games but I live in a state that prevents that either concealed or openly.
Personally when I travel I do have a gun and go by Fed interstate rules.
I do not have the option in my state to have a CCW and I not sure I would want to get a permit for a right. I plan to move in a year or so to a state where I can open carry if I choose to do so.
No league has a right to prohibit a constitutional right. They could kick her child out if they want, but the league director is just being a petty tryant since he does not like gun carry. He has NO authority to contravene the state constitution.
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