Why would you assume there’s more doctors. There’s only 50,000 people and they don’t seem to have enough of anybody. And Cottle has given indications that there’s very little help, so even if it’s more than 3 it’s not much more. I got the 3 number from the BSG wiki, it matches with what I remember from the show. Why is 3 an unreasonable number? Only 50,000 survivors, how many doctors do you think should be in a randomly selected population of 50,000 many of which are from an antiquated war machine that’s about to be turned into a museum.
Using a hypodermic doesn’t make a person a doctor. Remember the Viper pilots they’ve been training are people with flight experience. I’m sure they are working on training the med-techs and nurses we’ve seen to become doctors in their copious free time. But you don’t just magically become a doctor. I’m not saying people would shun people’s care, I’m saying they wouldn’t be doctors. Doctors require training, and lots of it. The difference between a person faking it as a lawyer and somebody faking it as a doctor is lawyers don’t kill people when they misread book. And remember Lee was just an assistant, there was a legitimate lawyer on the case.
There’s absolutely nothing unbelievable about it. It’s the real world, doctors need training. While they very well might be training people we’re only 3 years into the story. Even under ideal conditions that’s not enough time to become a doctor. And they aren’t in ideal conditions. 3 isn’t fine, nobody said they’re happy with 3, 3 is the number they’ve got. There you go with your rampant and silly assumptions again, assuming that if they only have 3 they’re happy with it. Are there any indications anywhere in the show that they’re happy with the number of ANYBODY they have?! No, quite the opposite, but there you go ASSUMING. Again and again and again, every single time you don’t like how something is in the show it’s 100% because of YOUR assumption. You have an incredible skill at making yourself unhappy.
It doesn’t depend on how subtle the differences are. Cylons could have a huge organ right in the middle of their gut that’s not found in humans, if the person doing the cutting doesn’t know what’s supposed to be a human gut they won’t know. You can’t compare the biology of one thing to another if you don’t know what the biology is supposed to be of at least one of them. You can’t tell the difference between apples and oranges if you don’t know what to expect to find in an apple or an orange.
Has it ever looked like anybody in the BSG world that know squat about medicine has any spare time? Both Cottle and the killer doctor lay claims to 12 and 16 hour shifts as the norm since the Cylon attack. And somewhere in there they have to eat and sleep. Probably the best rest time they had was during the Cylon occupation, but I’m pretty sure they didn’t get much chance for dissecting Cylons during that. I’m sure they want to know, but when did they have time to find out? They’ve got sick people to deal with, war wounded, trying to make do without enough medical supplies. Curiosity has a tendency to take a back seat to little things like saving lives.
All I’m saying is we’ve never SEEN a human SEE the glow. The simples rule of TV watching is: if you haven’t seen it it hasn’t happened. We’ve never seen anybody going at the dog. We’ve gotten no indication of how regular the glowing spine is. Heck we don’t even know if male Cylons do it. Making any assumptions, in ANY direction, on something seen two or three times in 3 1/2 season is just silly. Stick with what we know: we’ve never seen a human see it. That’s ALL we know that’s ALL we should use for deciding whether or not the humans know.
Adama’s statement WASN’T a case closed. That’s what I’ve been telling you. You’re the one that turned “we’ve found nothing” into “there’s nothing to find”, Adama’s statement was open ended, there could still be something to find. In a few years, when they get some more trained doctors and people in that job can work normal shifts and get full nights sleep and maybe spend some time doing something that doesn’t immediately contribute to keeping somebody alive. Man hours are the BSG fleet’s most precious commodity, they don’t have enough of them for any job title in the fleet. And every time they run into the Cylons they permanently lose a few more. Some stuff is going to have to sit and wait.
What’s a higher priority: keeping as many of your 50,000 people alive for another 24 hours as possible, getting information that might maybe be helpful one of these days? When you don’t have enough people trained for any position in the fleet long term goals suffer. It’s part of being understaffed even in nice safe corporate environments, now add being shot at and you can see that long term thing like dissecting Cylons could wind up on the back burner for a prolonged period of time.
Sorry but that’s a grotesquely silly false choice. Here’s the painfully obvious reality from the show:
Cylons ARE different than human, we know this from a lot of stuff (glowing spines, downloading, etc etc).
But they are NOT VERY different, we know this because they can breed.
And nobody on Galactica has had the time in between being shot at to figure out what the exact differences are.
It’s really painfully simple. It only gets complicated when you start throwing in unsupportable “hypotheses” like not finding a difference in a few hours means there’s no differences to find ever.
Reasonable inference about the larger world than we are being shown, like I said. I also assume there are a larger number of children in the fleet - or, for that matter, hot chicks, sick people, people with tattoos, redheads, etc etc etc - than a simple tally of the ones we have been literally shown.
You don't? You're really saying you don't?
And Cottle has given indications that there’s very little help, so even if it’s more than 3 it’s not much more.
Fair enough, not much more. But more!
Only 50,000 survivors, how many doctors do you think should be in a randomly selected population of 50,000
The random selection has nothing to do with it - remember I think people would be retasked for medical work in this situation.
For 50000, more than 3. Especially since they are scattered among dozens of ships.
Using a hypodermic doesn’t make a person a doctor.
I was speaking loosely for pete's sake, I just meant 'basic stuff'. But do tell, what "makes a person a doctor" in an emergency situation when humanity down to 50k? Again, do you really think people would be fretting over medical diplomas, board exams and state licensing?
I’m sure they are working on training the med-techs and nurses we’ve seen to become doctors in their copious free time.
Well, exactly. Indeed I'm sure that a lot of the med-techs and nurses are acting as de facto doctors and have been for a while. (Or at least would be, in a logical universe in which this situation were occurring.) The rigid, legalistic boundary between 'doctor' and 'nurse' would not seem as important as you are making it seem here to actual humans going through this situation.
But you don’t just magically become a doctor. I’m not saying people would shun people’s care, I’m saying they wouldn’t be doctors. Doctors require training, and lots of it.
Actually, you do just magically become a doctor, historically. 'Doctor' is not a separate species from 'human', it's just a person who is engaged in medical work. Traditionally it was most likely learned through simple apprenticeship. Yes of course in our modern society we have a whole system in place whereby someone is required to jump through several time-consuming hoops (college degree, MCAT, med school, internship, residency) in order to 'become a doctor'. I'm saying those hoops wouldn't mean diddly-squat in the BSG situation and apprenticeship/informal training would be the most likely pathway to kick-starting people into the role.
What, that's 'not good enough' for you? This is an emergency situation. And remember how you just got through telling me how shorthanded they are.
By the way, I've worked with doctors. I'm not overly impressed by the supposed 6-year floor you posit on how long it takes to learn what they learn.
The difference between a person faking it as a lawyer and somebody faking it as a doctor is lawyers don’t kill people when they misread book.
Yeah, so maybe the emergency doctors are more likely to mess up and get people killed. What of it?
And remember Lee was just an assistant, there was a legitimate lawyer on the case.
Yeah, and now he's suddenly a 'politician' of some sort anyway (it's not clear how/what). Then for like 20 minutes he was President. Yup, the Lee storylines are always totally logical and never silly. My favorite part was when he gave a speech, from the witness stand, as a defense lawyer, to exonerate Baltar, his client. Why don't other defense lawyers think of that?
It's as if the BSG writers have an informal rule that all Lee-centered components of the storyline must be written by a fifth-grader.
While they very well might be training people we’re only 3 years into the story.
I am specifically saying that in an actual situation like this, they'd have gotten at least some people up and running and delivering at least basic medical care well under 3 years. If you disagree, then fine. But that's what I think. Waiting six years for med school + internship + residency is just nonsense.
There you go with your rampant and silly assumptions again, assuming that if they only have 3 they’re happy with it.
Actually, I was being sarcastic. In actuality I assume they wouldn't be happy with it, and would thus look to expand the medical corps. Did you really not get this? It's basically the entire point I'm making.
Cylons could have a huge organ right in the middle of their gut that’s not found in humans, if the person doing the cutting doesn’t know what’s supposed to be a human gut they won’t know.
A lot of people who aren't full-on 'doctors' have a pretty good working knowledge of what's in the human body and what isn't. (I can identify the prostate, bladder, liver, kidneys, pancreas, small and large bowel, heart, lungs, spinal column, larynx, parotids, optic nerves, optic chiasm etc etc on a CT scan but I'm not 'a doctor'.) There's nothing magical about being 'a doctor' which automatically confers infinitely more knowledge about these things. You still seem enthralled by your 'doctor' fetish. ONLY doctors know ANYTHING! Well, I am not.
Also, it depends on what is in the Cylon gut and how different it is. If it were shaped like a child's rocking horse and had polka-dots and spewed fire from its 'mouth' upon contact with the atmosphere, I'd think that virtually anyone would at least have a sneaking suspicion that "hey, that's weird", and at least have the presence of mind to call it to the attention of Dr. Cottle. Division of labor.
You can’t compare the biology of one thing to another if you don’t know what the biology is supposed to be of at least one of them.
To reiterate, 1. a lot of people can have basic biology knowledge without being 'a doctor', 2. medical texts, 3. side-by-side dissections.
You can’t tell the difference between apples and oranges if you don’t know what to expect to find in an apple or an orange.
Um, what? One's red and the other's orange. One's pulpy and the other is hard. You can tell this by looking at them. And anyone would know these things even if they had never previously seen either.
Both Cottle and the killer doctor lay claims to 12 and 16 hour shifts as the norm since the Cylon attack. And somewhere in there they have to eat and sleep. Probably the best rest time they had was during the Cylon occupation, but I’m pretty sure they didn’t get much chance for dissecting Cylons during that. I’m sure they want to know, but when did they have time to find out?
First, I work 12 hour days and I'm wasting my time posting to you.
Second, as I think I've made clear, I envision that (in the actual situation) this would be prioritized, so it wouldn't be some hobby, it would be part of their day job.
Curiosity has a tendency to take a back seat to little things like saving lives.
Learning/knowing about these Cylons could have something to do with saving lives. At least, they appeared to think so for a while, then they dropped the subject.
All I’m saying is we’ve never SEEN a human SEE the glow. The simples rule of TV watching is: if you haven’t seen it it hasn’t happened.
That is an idiotic rule and I don't subscribe to it. I've never seen anyone excrete a bowel movement on a TV show but I assume it happens. You don't?
If All you're saying is we've never SEEN a human SEE the glow, then of course you are right. There are two possibilities then: (1) this is because no humans have seen the glow, or (2) humans have seen the glow, but no one has ever acted consistently with how humans would act if they knew Cylons had different biology that included e.g. a glowing spine.
I find BOTH possibile interpretations problematic, and that is my point precisely: BSG regularly tosses facts out there for which all logical interpretations are problematic.
Adama’s statement WASN’T a case closed. That’s what I’ve been telling you.
Great. So we agree then: there's no reason to think Cylon biology is all that identical to human biology. Now then: why doesn't anyone on BSG act as if they believe this? On the contrary, virtually everyone acts as if Cylons and humans are basically indistinguishable. And yet they don't make the next leap from there (if so, Cylons are humans). This is precisely my complaint.
What’s a higher priority: keeping as many of your 50,000 people alive for another 24 hours as possible, getting information that might maybe be helpful one of these days?
It's a tradeoff and you have to balance and prioritize the needs of now against the needs of one year from now, five, etc. I don't know what the exact resolution is, but I do know that at least for a while, the higher-ups on BSG thought it was pretty important to test for Cylons. Hell, they gave Baltar a freakin' nuke just on his say-so that he needed it for the test. So they must have thought it was pretty important. But now they don't, not at all. You're saying it's because they 'don't have time'.
Well somehow they all had time to stop what they were doing and put Baltar on trial (albeit, a phony trial). What immediate life-and-death need did that serve, I wonder?
Here’s the painfully obvious reality from the show: Cylons ARE different than human, we know this from a lot of stuff (glowing spines, downloading, etc etc). But they are NOT VERY different, we know this because they can breed. And nobody on Galactica has had the time in between being shot at to figure out what the exact differences are.
And thus, here's my interpretation of all that: since Cylons look like humans, can breed with humans, and whatever biological differences from humans they may have are minor/subtle, Cylons are humans. The glowing spine thing (whatever the explanation) seems totally spurious, if I injected some fluorescent dye under my skin would I become 'not human'? As for downloading, in the end I believe (and I think you said too) this would probably have to be more a matter of the resurrection ship having very powerful receivers (or whatever) than of the Cylons being biologically different per se. And the rest (superstrength, talk to computers with your hand in goo, etc) you kinda just have to ignore or at least think/assume it's within the realm of possibility of human biology.
So, I think the least-bad interpretation of what we've been shown (and ignoring the spurious, the contradictory, and the silly) is that Cylons (the skinjobs) are just humans. Especially given that THEY CAN BREED WITH HUMANS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. If the show wants me to believe Cylons aren't humans, they've done a very bad job of painting a believable picture that gives me any significant reason to think they aren't.