Posted on 12/27/2007 2:35:00 PM PST by Shermy
No. There are no government inspections -- even though the SF zoo is likely a municipal operation. The authorizing body is the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA).
The AZA reviews plans and authorizes certification for a zoo to keep a certain animal. But they do not inspect. Government inspectors have no idea what the standards are/should be and have no idea what to look for.
My adamancy on this issue is a function of having worked with and knowing several zoo managements. By and large, they are a closed profession, a self-serving bureaucracy that will not make waves -- even when something isn't up to standard.
Think government agency.
Circuses take much better care of their animals.
Try adamance.
I was wondering if the cops got the cell phones off these guys. This sounds exactly like a Youtube stunt to me.
Sure... Hold muh beer ;~)
We have a nice zoo here. Kids don’t run wild or tease the animals either, that I have seen. I think the reason is that we are very proud of it and there are workers and slews of volunteers everywhere watching those animals.
“You are right! The other 3 walls look very questionable especially the back wall.”
Have you been to the SF Zoo? If you had, you would have no reason to say that, period. The back “wall” of the enclosure is a fake cave opening that leads to the inner cages, and the cats cannot climb the vertical face, even if they could jump up - puls, I think the fake rock material that covers it is meade to break away if they get at it, and, to top it off, I dimly remember them saying they had motion sensors and the razor wire that tops the back wall and sides is electrified.
Tigers have been in those grottos for over 60 years, and just NOW they notice the wall is too low?
No, I stand by my hunch that the kids created the scenario that allowd the cat to get out. All this time, with prime, tasty prey mere feet away across a sidewalk, after decades of taunting and having batteries and such thrown at them...they could get over the wall all this time? And just never bothered?
No. It does not make sense. That cat needed a reason to try for that wall, and I doubt it was because the kids had hamburger grease on their hands, or they skimped on the tiger’s lunch, or it was just grumpy and having a bad day.
That tiger had a reason, and it killed one of them. That’s my hunch.
I do think it curious, as pointed out by ByDesign, and as I alluded to in one of my responses yesterday, that no tigers have previously escaped from this enclosure (although it's possible they have, but reports have been quashed by zoo authorities). It seems likely to me that something was different about the situation and circumstances on Christmas that allowed the situation to rapidly devolve into the nightmare it became.
Could the concrete in the tiger's paws be an indicator that the concrete was eroding or otherwise degraded? For some reason I'm reminded of the scene in Clint Eastwood's Escape From Alcatraz where they discover how the salt air of San Francisco bay had broken down the mortar in their cells...could something similar have taken place at the zoo?
I'm still not convinced that the victims were without fault and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Certainly it looks like the zoo will be paying up
Yikes... that’s kinda vivid.
guess he means the assassination upstaged/became the tiger story?
http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/national/story/2224820/
The director of the zoo where a teenager was killed by an escaped tiger acknowledged Thursday that the wall around the animal's pen was just 12 1/2 feet high - well below the height recommended by the accrediting agency for the nation's zoos.
San Francisco Zoo Director Manuel A. Mollinedo also admitted that it is becoming increasingly clear the 300-pound Siberian tiger leaped or climbed out of its open-air enclosure, perhaps by grabbing onto a ledge.
"She had to have jumped," he said. "How she was able to jump that high is amazing to me." Mollinedo said investigators have ruled out the theory the tiger escaped through a door behind the exhibit.
According to the Association of Zoos & Aquariums, the walls around a tiger exhibit should be at least 16.4 feet high. But Mollinedo said the nearly 70-year-old wall was 12 feet, 5 inches, with what he described as a "moat" 33 feet across.
That might be part of what he means... ;~)
Government funded project, generic construction specifications, built by lowest “qualified” bidder, (possible “set aside” contract).
Any questions?
“Circuses take much better care of their animals.”
Maybe some zoos, like the Oakland zoo, but I’ve spent a lot of time at the SF Zoo, and beein on the behind the scenes tours and seen how they take care of the animals there, and I have a really hard time saying that about the SFZoo.
The one thing that I would add to the wall being at fault, which I don’t think, but to be fair, is that there’s a possibility the enclosure was designed for smaller tigers, and this one was exceptionally large (if she’s the one I think it is, she’s smaller than the others they have), or an exceptional jumper, but again, if she’s the one I think she is, they’ve had her a long time, and would have seen it.
There’s no history of the tigers trying the wall. I think the real issue and blame is the scenario that created the need for the tiger to go over that wall.
Having said that, IF the wall is truly 8’ below recommended height, then that’s a HUGE issue, and perhaps it was just luck that this never happened, or kids were better behaved and had more common sense before not to try this.
I don’t believe this was a case of the tiger just deciding to scale the wall and kill 3 people.
Also, the question is, where were the keepers, the ones I’ve seen, who’s job it is to be there at the railing, to answer questions, and keep idiots from dangling body parts in? Is there a staffing issue, that the kids were *able* to provoke the tiger?
I’m trying to be fair, there are good questions the zoo needs to answer, but I think most of the inquiry, at this point, should be on the kids, and WHY the two brothers initially refused to give their names.
The whole story is fishy. One teen dead, and a beautiful creature destroyed. i just don’t think it was cooincidence, or a random tradgedy, and I don’t think it was from malfeasance or laxity from the part of the SF Zoo, and I’d hate to be wrong about that.
Tigers, and lions, too, don't stop to consider their actions when they perceive a threat. The cat likely lightly touched the top of the wall on the way over. Even a moose can jump a six foot fence and they aren't the type of animal to even think of jumping or leaping.
“Good grief people... This does not have to be a mystery... someone give these people a tape measure.”
No one volunteered to make the measurement when the tiger was in there.
That's the sort of behavior which almost doomed Magic Mountain.
See post #111, which seems to end the dispute about the wall's heighth.
And understand that I agree with you a about "reasonable safety measures" cannot take into account "unreasonable behavior" on the part of the attending or viewing humans.
But they must take into account "unreasonable behavior" on the part of the animal.
There is a Belmont link on one of these threads, wherein the chief guy at the AZA (who set the standards) states that an adult tiger, stretched out, can measure 12' toe-to-toe. And that said tiger is then capable of elevating his waist 5-to-8'.
For such an animal, with powerful claws, a 12'5" containment wall would be a high hurdle -- but one they could readily clear with some effort.
Just because the tiger had never escaped before is no proof that she couldn't escape...if she tried.
Zoo animals are not permanent. They move around from zoo-to-zoo, for various reasons (breeding, inventory, enclosure renovation, etc.). All of the Siberian tigers in the U.S. today, like Tatiana, were bred at the Cincinnati Zoo, e.g.
Consequently, it may not have previously occurred to her to try to scale the 12' wall -- because she had initially encountered 16' enclosures and found them unsurmountable. So far as we know, to a cat, a wall is a wall.
I'd agree something caused her to go up the wall -- and we have no idea what that was. But it is apparent the SF Zoo knew they had a catastrophe waiting to happen...and did nothing about it.
This is turning into one huge game of pass the buck.
“I do think it curious, as pointed out by ByDesign, and as I alluded to in one of my responses yesterday, that no tigers have previously escaped from this enclosure (although it’s possible they have, but reports have been quashed by zoo authorities). It seems likely to me that something was different about the situation and circumstances on Christmas that allowed the situation to rapidly devolve into the nightmare it became.
Could the concrete in the tiger’s paws be an indicator that the concrete was eroding or otherwise degraded? For some reason I’m reminded of the scene in Clint Eastwood’s Escape From Alcatraz where they discover how the salt air of San Francisco bay had broken down the mortar in their cells...could something similar have taken place at the zoo?”
A VERY good point. Maybe it was the first time the tiger tried the wall, and it crumbled enough to give her purchase. But that still leads to why the tiger tried, and from my experiences, the tigers simply do not try. Most of the time they ignore what’s happening at the railing...it’s reasonable to think that the kids provided the means for the zoo to discover a flaw with the concrete,with tragic results.
I also keep in mind, tigers are ferociously territorial, and will fight to the death any other tiger or predator that enters it’s territory. THAT could be the trigger to the tiger trying the wall, or using a limb as a ladder along with teh concrete - they said concrete residue was found in the *back* paws, not the front, which,if accurate, could be telling.
I think the autopsy of the boys,a nd a thorough investigation of the wounds of the other two, along with the body of the tiger, and a close inspection of the grotto for foreign debris...and possibly interviewing friends, or looking at their computers and phones for evidence of trying other “stunts”, could go a long way. My gut feeling is the kids brough their own doom upon them, but I’m trying to be fair and allow that the zoo could be partially at fault as well, or unaware of the danger because they’d never had this happen. You’d think theyd’ have had idiots lean into the enclosure, or try to climb in, before - or witnessed behavior from the tiger in question that she was attempting to scale the wall.
“I’m still not convinced that the victims were without fault and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.”
I’m with you 1000%. I think the only reason that tiger went over the wall, and hunched over it’s next kill before being shot, was because it had a reason to: anger.
If the zoo takes some blame, so be it, if they deserve it - and steps taken immediately to keep it from happening again. But I don’t want to martyr these kids if they caused it to happen, especially if they were doing it for 30 seconds of video.
Scenario:
Xmas day.
New video camera, or cell phone, or gadget with camera/video.
YouTube clips are the new coolest thing, getting clips with millions of hits. Go browse YouTube, you’ll see plenty of video of kids breaking the law and posting it. Dangling in a tiger pit could make a kid famous for a bit, no doubt. It’s all about one-upmanship with that crowd.
“Hey, lets go to the zoo, and screw around, and tape it!”
I could see that being the reason, very, very easily.
If it had been these three kids playing chicken with a subway train, or on a freeway, would as much attention be paid to the safety equipment of the train, or how “safe” freeways are for kids to play chicken?
Agh. Enough. I spoke my piece, now I’ll wait for any more info to be released. My love of those tigers, and the zoo, is conflicting with all the other issues. It’s too wierd a story right now.
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