Once and for all, proof that Macs are cheaper than PCs

Machinist.Salon ^ | By Farhad Manjoo

[Blue Highway]

Now I get to ask you why. Why would you turn down a potentially better product because people you will never meet, and most likely have no actual effect on your user experience also use it?

I would guess about half of Windows users voted for Kerry in the last election, are you going to stop using PCs because they attract Democrats?

No, I wouldn't turn it down because of that reason, which is precisely why I will eventually buy one (very likely used). That said since I have been happy with PC's for some time, I honestly don't feel I am missing out on anything for not owning a Mac. I have Photoshop, and recording software. Heck with skins I can get a close mock-up to the visual aspect of OSX.

People were early on when Vista was in beta form comparing it to a more MAC-like UI, and maybe that is precisely why I don't care for the graphic gimmickry of Vista. The Aero crap was the first thing I turned off when I loaded Vista Beta. My laptop had Vista pre-loaded and I installed a new 160gb hard drive and the OS that went on it was XP Pro.

[Blue Highway]

Most of it comes from feeling like I have to trick the computer to do what I want it to. As opposed to a Mac where everything seems to work as expected from the get go. Not to mention the sheer amount of plug and play. I spent thirty minutes getting my sister’s PC ready to plug her digital camera into. With my Mac I snapped some pics and plugged the camera in and iPhoto started automatically.

What precisely is giving you problems where you have to trick Windows into doing what you want to do? Is it an issue with new programs and unfamiliarity; differences with Apple you're so used to doing a certain way, and having to do it differently is frustrating, and not logical to you?

Here is a hint with the plug and play aspect. I avoid that issue with a camera buy using a $15 San Disk card reader. The camera never needs to be plugged into the computer and the wasted space of installing 2 or 3 software suites for camera editing (I have 3 digital cameras) would be a waste of hard drive space. With the multi-reader it acts as a removeable drive. Simple.

[Blue Highway]

Same here, but is that any reason to buy the Mac Pro simply because Apple refuses to offer a mid-priced tower with desktop components (do you really need workstation Xeon chips and fully buffered, i.e. bottlenecked, RAM? Oh, for $2499 you will only get 1GB of it, so get ready to pay for more since many Pro users recommend AT LEAST 4GB!)

I wouldn't spend $2499 on a Mac, so I'd be buying a used G4 or G5 Mac. Nope I don't need Xeon chips and to be honest I don't even need Dual processors or even core duo. Heck I don't even like Intel, so I'd be opting for AMD Athlon X2 or for laptop Turion X2 if I wanted dual core and had a choice with an Apple. Yeah 1gb is a joke, and I was wondering if the memory is standard DDR2 chips or some proprietary APPLE ONLY chips which are priced at a premium. I bought 2gbs (2-1gb chips) 3 months aqgo for $50, wonder how much it's going to cost for that on an Apple?

[Swordmaker]

Re: how far you can delve into it.

OSX.5 Leopard is a fully certified UNIX which means you can delve into as far as you want with the fully functional Terminal (think Command Line)

Anything you can do with Linux or Unix can be done on a Mac.

On an Intel Mac you can also do anything you can do with any version of Windows for computers.

[Filo]

Just shy of $300 cheaper for the MacBook. Am I missing something here?

Probably.

I'm not feeling like rechecking your numbers, but when I bought my wife's Titanium (a couple of years ago) it was over $3K out the door. A comparable Dell with a bigger hard drive but the same RAM was going for no more than $1,800 at the time.

[Swordmaker]

re: the Quad core XPS for $2349

Sure is. But that’s only one Quad core... Add the second one and see what the price comparison with a Mac.

[tacticalogic]

Given the rate of development of new hardware and software in either market, coupled with the volatility of pricing, I’m skeptical of anyone claiming to answer the question “once and for all” right out of the gate.

[Filo]

But the point was to establish a per month or per year cost of ownership... Purchase price minus cost recovery at resale divided by months or years of ownership. The cost per time period comes out lower for the Mac.

Except that almost nobody ever re-sells their old machines.

I've got 3 older Macs and several older PCs lying around that we've upgraded from and either converted to newer uses (give to the kids, etc.) or that are waiting to be scrapped.

For your money you get a complete suite of software designed to interact with each other... and you get a rock solid OS ... as well as top of the line engineering.

Office is just as integrated and XP and Vista aren't substantially less stable. What they are is more prone to attack because the hackers go for where the people are and Mac holds under 5% of the market.

My experience is just exactly the opposite. Most Mac users are also Windows users at their place of work

YMMV. I've encountered and/or worked with thousands of folks and my experience is as I stated it. Mac folks tend to get very lost very fast with PCs, especially once they try to do anything beyond the basics.

Of course, I live in the SF Bay Area and most of the mac folks are left-wingnuts so there isn't much there there to begin with. . . If you have Macs scattered about your house, why are you buying a new one? One of the others could probably do the job.

In this case they couldn't. My wife is a graphic artist and needs both storage and speed. The older machines aren't cutting it anymore.

I really would prefer to avoid buying a new Mac but at least it's a business expense.

[wardaddy]

Exceptions don’t make rules for me.....not on any subject.

does for lotsda folks here though....they make their rules from exceptions actually

[wardaddy]

but I am also sure most of those same stereotypical Mac users are still using Macs

true of any mac store I've seen.....it's like Volvo owners....

[gondramB]

So few PCs are sold while they still have significant value, I’m not sure it sure it makes sense to put too much emphasis on resale value.

[Filo]

Yes, you could buy a PC for $500 but it did not have Xeon processors, Buffered Error Correcting DRAM, dual 1.33GHz frontside buses, a 1000 watt power supply to drive eight 30 inch monitors and space for two terabytes of hard drive space inside the case. The $500 PC is no way comparable... and is considerably slower than the Mac Pro.

That's where you're running into trouble. The $500 PC isn't a valid comparison, but neither is matching the features that don't have any real-world applicability and only add cost (dual FSB, ECC RAM, etc.)

As was posted above, you can get a very comparable PC system for substantially less than the Mac and it'll come with a display and maybe even speakers and other accessories. Every month or so Dell will even throw in a free printer or camera.

And even the $500 machine won't be "considerably" slower. It will be slower, but not for most of your day-to-day stuff (email, web surfing, spreadsheets, etc.)

Sure the $3K Mac will grind faster on Photoshop, but rare is the user who really needs that. . . but my wife does. :(

[antiRepublicrat]

MacOS and Windows got their start from the same source.

MacOS was a successful attempt to improve on Xerox's work. Windows was an unsuccessful attempt to copy MacOS.

The base machine usually costs 2 to 3 times as much for the same stuff

See my earlier laptop comparison.

Need more RAM? You can't buy the standard sticks, you need the parity stuff for $100s more - and so on.

The extra 2 GB for my iMac was standard laptop RAM from NewEgg. Only the Mac Pros need special RAM, and that's because they're Xeon, and all Xeons need this RAM. The only difference is that Apple requires a quality heat spreader (easily available from non-Apple sources).

Plus Mac software tends to cost more.

Have you compared the price of iWork and MS Office? have you compared the upgrade price of the OS itself, especially if you're upgrading multiple machines?

As for the virus and malware argument, the real issue is that the coders don’t bother with Macs because nobody uses them. . . that's hardly a real advantage.

It's pretty big. In fact, it's been more than doubling recently. Plus, OS X being UNIX gives them the UNIX developers.

I used Macs since the first one, but not as my main machine. I've used Windows since the unbearable 80s editions. There is now no comparison: Going to the Mac as my main machine was a major relief in every way.

[Swordmaker]

Re: ...but my wife does.

So why aren't you buying her the equivalent Dell workstation at $3900 since obviously the $3000 Mac must be 50% more expensive as you claimed.

This is a real world situation, Filo... and the Mac is less expensive.

[Swordmaker]

Oh, sorry Filo, you said It was 2 to 3 times more expensive... Not 50%...

[Swordmaker]

re: ...so few...

It is just one factor in finding the real total cost of ownership. I thought it would make for some good friendly repartee and it has.

[Ditto]

Bump.

[antiRepublicrat]

Probably. I'm not feeling like rechecking your numbers

Those were the numbers as priced: same video, processor, hard drive, display size, Bluetooth, memory and about the same size battery. They both are close to the same size and weight (a $300 option monitor, not included, cuts it in Dell's favor on this). Other than that, each comes with a few minor things the other doesn't. What's left is warranty: Dell slightly better, but for the difference I could get three years Apple Care and still be $50 ahead.

but when I bought my wife's Titanium (a couple of years ago) it was over $3K out the door.

A PPC Mac I take it. That was the worst time to buy as the G4 chip was in its last throes, already maxed out, and Apple couldn't fit a G5 into a notebook. Let's do it for now: XPS M1710 vs. 17" MacBook Pro. A slightly slower Dell (in processor and video) with otherwise the same specs and close to the same other features comes out about $350 more. And the Dell is a lot bigger and heavier.

[antiRepublicrat]

Yeah 1gb is a joke, and I was wondering if the memory is standard DDR2 chips or some proprietary APPLE ONLY chips which are priced at a premium.

Apple charges outrageous prices for memory. I really don't understand why they do that, since they are the exact same chips you can get from any decent memory vendor for a fraction of the price. I upped my iMac from 1 GB to 3 GB myself and saved a few hundred dollars. And it only took about 30 seconds of my time (unscrew the little panel under the front, pop in the chip and screw it back in).

Of course, the last few PCs I bought I also got the minimum memory and upgraded myself (although it took a LOT longer). It's just the sensible thing to do unless the vendor is running a "double the memory for free" special.

[antiRepublicrat]

A Mac user would have no particular problem switching to a Linux PC. ;)

I would. I'm totally spoiled now. I've had to dip into a shell once (as aside from going to shell just to play with UNIX), but only because I wanted some esoteric power management settings.