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Tchaikovsky
New York Times ^ | December 8, 2002 | DIRK OLIN

Posted on 10/24/2007 2:55:24 PM PDT by Borges

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To: Mike Powell

And to top it off...he had so much more to give. He was murdered.


41 posted on 03/26/2008 8:54:32 AM PDT by Borges
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To: Borges

Believe it or not, Tchaikovsky was considered a homosexual and at that time of conservative Russian society, homosexual can be prosecuted.

Although his dead was left much speculations around, but one of the consipiracy theory suggested that Tchaikovsky was ordered to kill himself by none other than the Russian Tsar.

Looking back at the history, most of the famous composers died early such as Chopin, Mozart, Franz Schubert, Tchaikovsky and Mendelsson


42 posted on 03/26/2008 9:44:34 AM PDT by Mike Powell
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To: Mike Powell

Some heavy hitter politcos from the School of Jurisprudence where Tchaikovsky studied as a young man ordered him to kill himself or else they would reveal his sexuality to the Tzar. They thought they were ‘helping’ him preserve his reputation. Tchaikovsky should have told them to go to hell. The Tzar would have worked something out and not exile the most world famous Russian next to Tolstoy.

Cholera takes much longer to develop then it supposedly did in a week with the ‘drank unboiled water’ story that his brother Modest and his doctors fabricated. Since the fall of the Soviet Union more evidence surfaced.


43 posted on 03/26/2008 10:06:49 AM PDT by Borges
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To: Publius; Billthedrill
Brahms gets tagged as "neoclasical", but in chamber music he was a revolutionary. As a musical historian, he was one of the few people in Vienna who was familiar with Palestrina and Gesualdo, even if he had no knowledge of genuine Renaissance or Baroque performance practice due to the distance of time. But he wrote a lot of good music in the forms created by Haydn and earlier composers.

That's what my Music History professor told us. Brahms wanted to preserve the classical music forms, particularly in symphonic music.

Brahms was a great admirer of Wagner, and one of his prized possessions was an autographed score of Wagner's Die Meistersinger. It was Bruckner that Brahms abhored.

I think Brahms perceived Bruckner's enthusiastic appreciation of Wagner as bordering on sycophantical. If I remember correctly, after one performance, Bruckner genuflected before Wagner.


FWIW, Charles Ives greatly respected Brahms, and disliked Tchaikovsky.
44 posted on 03/26/2008 10:22:12 AM PDT by COBOL2Java ("McCain is a war hero. He's also a useful idiot for the Democrats." - Mark Levin)
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To: COBOL2Java
Check out Charles Ives: A Life in Music by Jan Swafford.
45 posted on 03/26/2008 11:17:11 AM PDT by Publius (A = A)
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To: Publius
Check out Charles Ives: A Life in Music by Jan Swafford.

I have it - excellent book! Another good book is "Charles Ives: "My Father`s Song": A Psychoanalytic Biography" by Stuart Feder.

I've always been a bit of a Charles Ives enthusiast. I've visited his home and family cemetery in Danbury CT. As for performances, I've preferred Michael Tilson Thomas, although I thoroughly enjoyed the 2nd symphony conducted by Leonard Bernstein.

46 posted on 03/26/2008 11:42:38 AM PDT by COBOL2Java ("McCain is a war hero. He's also a useful idiot for the Democrats." - Mark Levin)
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To: COBOL2Java

Ives disliked any music he percieved as ‘feminine’.


47 posted on 03/26/2008 11:56:55 AM PDT by Borges
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To: Borges
Ives disliked any music he percieved as ‘feminine’.

Very true. He liked to call people who liked that kind of music "Rollos". Not to turn this into a Charles Ives thread, but one of my favorite Ives quotes comes from a performance of his and Carl Ruggles' music. Several people booed Ives' composition, but when they did the same during the performance of his friend Ruggles, Ives turned around to the audience and shouted "Stop being such a God-damned sissy! Why can't you stand up before fine strong music like this and use your ears like a man?"

48 posted on 03/26/2008 12:55:32 PM PDT by COBOL2Java ("McCain is a war hero. He's also a useful idiot for the Democrats." - Mark Levin)
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To: COBOL2Java

He was very insecure about his reputation as a ‘real man’. Serious music in America at the time was considered a women’s advocation. That’s why he didn’t want to be a full time composer.


49 posted on 03/26/2008 2:36:11 PM PDT by Borges
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To: COBOL2Java
I thoroughly enjoyed the 2nd symphony conducted by Leonard Bernstein.

One of my desert island recordings.

Because Ives viewed openly melodic, hummable music as not quite masculine, he always referred to Rachmaninoff as Rach-not-man-enough.

50 posted on 03/26/2008 5:25:53 PM PDT by Publius (A = A)
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To: Borges

Conspiracy or not. Tchaikovsky’s death will remains a mystery. Assumed that evidence will resurface, there’re still some parties will argue the case.

Let see now, Cholera was once made London suffered under it’s wrath. I do hope that Moscow/St. Petersburg at that time got good sewer systems and clean water.


51 posted on 03/29/2008 6:29:04 AM PDT by Mike Powell
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To: Billthedrill; Publius

A side of Brahms not commonly seen...when he was told of the Little Big Horn Massacre he was gratified that the Indians were ‘finally able to bathe in the blood of their tormentors’.


52 posted on 04/03/2008 1:55:39 PM PDT by Borges
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To: Borges

Custer might have agreed. ;-)


53 posted on 04/03/2008 1:58:55 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill; wideawake
Brahms was a conundrum. He worshiped the Iron Chancellor but felt a bit of revulsion towards his own North German Prussian heritage and how, after the German re-Unification it was wiping away the lighter more rationalist Austrian culture he had adapted as a young man.
54 posted on 04/03/2008 2:03:26 PM PDT by Borges
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To: Borges

Yeah, and they didn’t let him forget about that heritage, either. He never lost the North German accent, although the kiddies he gave candy to on his walks didn’t seem to mind it as much as their parents. It didn’t help that Wagner was so adopted by the Bavarians (Ludwig II especially).


55 posted on 04/03/2008 2:09:53 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill; Borges; wideawake
Check out "Triumphlied", written right after the Franco-Prussian War. It was huge hit everywhere but France. (Hmm, wonder why?)

From Jan Swafford's biography of Brahms:

The opening chorus's text from Revelation proclaims, "Hallelujah, salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God; for true and righteous are His judgments." Brahms omitted the Scripture's indecorous following lines -- "For He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication." Privately, though, he copied the beginning of that verse into his own score, under an instrumental phrase that exactly represents it. He took great glee in pointing out the spot to friends.

Brahms was of two minds about the whole pan-German thing.

56 posted on 04/04/2008 6:57:22 PM PDT by Publius (A = A)
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To: Publius

What’s wrong with Tchaikvosky’s Third Quartet? It’s so morose! Akin to his Piano Trio. Have you heard his String Sextet (Souvenir De Florence)? It’s wonderful.


57 posted on 07/29/2008 2:40:01 PM PDT by Borges
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To: Borges
The Sextet in D minor (Souvenir of Florence) sounds great the first time you hear it. Once you get more deeply into it, it's hokey. In the middle of the second movement, he writes a section that is completely irrelevent to the piece. It just doesn't work. Tchaikovsky once commented that he had a hell of a time writing all the parts, and it shows. Listen to the Brahms Sextet in G Major, Op. 36, to hear how a better composer handles the formal problems of sextet writing.

The Piano Trio in A minor is a wonderful piece. But a few years ago, I had a chat with a cellist who appears regularly at our summer chamber music festival in Seattle. We were comparing it to the Shostakovich Piano Trio in E minor. He said, "After hearing the Shostakovitch, you want to go home and slit your wrists. After the Tchaikovsky, you want to go home, pour a stiff drink and forget about it." He had a point. Shostakovich cuts closer to the bone.

The String Quartet in E-flat minor was an ordeal to listen to. Morose or not, it doesn't compare to the first quartet in D Major, which is a classically composed gem. A composer with Brahms' critical sense would have suppressed that piece.

58 posted on 07/29/2008 3:34:04 PM PDT by Publius (Another Republican for Obama -- NOT!!)
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To: Borges

Add me on, I love classical music. I know that the discussion is on Tchaikovsky, but I would like to recommend Mitsuko Uchida - Mozart Piano Sonatas, a joy to listen to from begining to end. I also had the pleasure of seeing the New York Collegium in concert once, it was fantastic and moving./Just Asking - seoul62......


59 posted on 07/29/2008 4:01:27 PM PDT by seoul62
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To: Publius

I’ve heard the Tchaikovsky sextet many times and the melodic freshness overcomes whatever structural problems it may have.

You have to be in the mood for the the Third Quartet but if the mood is right it can be quite moving. The trio is like that in that it can seem interminable if not performed properly.

Why is Brahms always regarded as a better composer than T? Both could do things the other couldn’t do.

Tchaikovsky was just about the only Russian composer of the 19th century who could write a convincing Sonata-Allegro movement.


60 posted on 07/29/2008 5:55:35 PM PDT by Borges
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