Posted on 06/19/2007 10:15:47 PM PDT by george76
The grandfather of a boy killed by a black bear while camping blamed the U.S. Forest Service Tuesday for not getting the word out about an earlier attack.
Before 11-year-old Sam Ives was attacked and killed Sunday night, the same bear had attacked campers in the same spot hours earlier.
Eldon Ives is the boy's grandfather. He told reporters Tuesday that he hoped the Forest Service will do a better job of protecting campers after Sam's death.
He said the violent way his grandson was killed is a sorrow that will never heal.
Sam Ives would have been a 6th grader this fall.
He was camping with his family in American Fork Canyon on Father's Day when a black bear dragged him from their tent and killed him.
What about a hand gun? Bear Pepper Spray? Tent electric fencing? A dog? Any of these standard precautions could have changed the result.
“black bear encounter/attack/death stories on FR. It’s happening all over the country—NJ, WI, CO, TN, FL, UT, PA, NY.”
More bears + more people = more encounters
Yeah, you're probably right.
From the article I posted:
Rangers did post warning signs around the campsites but admit they would have taken more precautions if they had known the seriousness of the bear activity that had occurred before the deadly attack. “It was reported as only a brush by,” Logan said. “Not the detail of what that really was.”
Maybe time to thin the herd?
Like I posted on the other thread yesterday, we don’t get many bears in my neck of the woods.... Only like 5 sightings a year maybe. Mostly cougars are the problem here. And since we live in the woodlands, whenever I am out and about, I carry my trusty Colt .380 Auto with CorBon 90-gr. JHP +P! If the drastic need ever would be... I’d empty the thing in 6 seconds and remove 40% of the creatures brain matter.
= )
“I carry a 375 H&H and a .44 Redhawk with max hard solid loads,”
Is .44 mag still the handgun standard? Is .454 Casul getting any traction?
Last time I was up there and touring/camping I kept a Marlin 1894s which is .44 mag, because transporting a pistol across the Canadian border and up the Alcan was illegal and out of the question. Long guns were OK at the time (that may have changed).
When I was a salmon fishing at the Kenai I heard about some guys who were charged by a black that came out of the scrub field just down from the ferry landing. They had a bunch of fish (kings? don’t recall) on the shoreline, assumed that’s what the bear wanted. One guy had a shorty 12 gauge but he couldn’t get it into position fast enough and ended up taking two really wild shots. But it was enough to scare the bear away.
If I get up there again I’ll have my gun dealer ship a Blackhawk .44 mag to Anchorage. It’s the only way to go.
I check the Uinta NF web site and they have the standard prohibitions on shooting near people or across roads, but there’s no mention of firearms being prohibited.
Firearms are permitted in most (not all) National Forests. It’s one of several reasons I prefer the National Forests to National Parks, where guns are prohibited.
In addition to keeping your guns, you can usually find a NF directly adjacent to a NP, and often you’ll get equal or better scenery, less people, more “wilderness” and a better time (e.g. Kaibab NF vs Grand Canyon NP).
Parks like Yellowstone and Denali are must-sees, but the rigimentation of the Park Service can make them almost intolerable.
“Maybe time to thin the herd?”
Black bears and deer are both reaching out-of-control status in the Northeast.
I’ve seen entire herds of deer in the suburbs of Virginia, Maryland, and Massachusetts. 5 to 15 at a time.
In the real life situation a bear will outrun a horse, they attack from cover, they will come around in a circle to stalk you. Basically when attacked its fast, you are in terror mode and reactively your first thought is to flee.
For defensive purposes a short 12 ga with 3” magnum slugs in a pump is perfect, after that my personal first choice for a handgun is a 10mm Glock, revolvers are of course excellant but can a person hit something moving really fast with only 6 shots? especially a BIG piece like the 454, or 500 SW?
Other than using grenades or a Manpad noise is your best passive defense, pepper sometimes is effective but not completely, bells are just dinner sounds. Bears hate dogs but a mans best friend will be just that a diversion the bear will react to. Our local hot King Salmon fishing spot has local black bears, a .357, 9mm or even a .38 if shot enough will stop a blackie, the more rounds available the better. Another poster uses a .380? Up here that wouldn’t go through a winter jacket much less hide, rule is to go deep, head shots may just richochet, need to go deep or break up the shoulder blades, solid bullets like hard cast lead is best, hollowpoints will work if you have enough like in a semi auto like my max reloaded 10mm Glock. I have .45’s but I feel its not enough knockdown vs. clip capacity.
While in no way attempting to make light of this tragedy, or the incredible pain and hurt the family is experiencing ( dealing with the death of a child is difficult enough, coupled with the knowledge of how he died is far worse) does anyone want to guess what date the lawsuit against the Forest Service is filed?
There’s not really enough information in this story to make an accurate assessment of what went on.
Still, it’s a little harsh to pass judgement on someone who has lost a child in a senseless manner such as this when the person is just having a natural reaction which is to try and figure out how the incident could have been prevented and determine why it wasn’t.
What if it was YOUR child? Would you be so quick to “suck it up?” I wouldn’t think so. Me either.
As for “whining to the media” you know how media is. They are probably all over this family asking questions and trying to sell papers. Generally people involved in tragedies would want to be left alone. This guy wants answers. I don’t see how anyone can blame him.
Yes and there are plenty of old biddies who:
a) feed the deer regularly, putting out corn, salt licks, etc. Some of these people feed the deer by hand
b) write letters to their local AP reprint rag moaning about how beautiful the deer are and how wrong it is to hunt the deer or do anything to reduce their numbers, despite obvious signs of overpopulation
c) show up at park board and other official meetings to complain about efforts to thin deer herds on public land. Explaning to these "caring" individuals that there simply isn't enough food and/or space for all the deer doesn't seem to work. The biddies will then demand some sort of castration or other unworkable plan.
As Mike McConnell of WLW Radio in Cincinnati says: "the animal rights crowd claims to want to protect all species, but you can rely on one thing with them: the bigger and browner the eyes, the more they want to protect it. Not too many animal rights types are fighting to protect Gila monsters or rattlesnakes."
National Forests are not the same as Parks, and are under the Dept of Agriculture. Atleast where I am, you can carry in National Forests.
Does it fit in a shopping cart?
The previous attack was probably the bear foraging for food, as was probably this attack. They don’t remove bears for being bears.
When we went camping out west, we were warned about bears. I have a picture of a bear from about 40 feet away, which ate our dishwashing liquid because we forgot to put it up in the hanging bag.
There are signs posted everywhere, and they probably were given a brochure warning of bears and reminding people to keep no food in their tent.
Some kids just don’t believe there is such a thing as “the wild” anymore. But there is — and I bet there are bear “attacks” weekly in most national parks — not something that provokes special “warnings”.
Maybe we should blame the commercials that use bear attacks as a humorous way to sell cars. It makes people think they are a joke, and they are not.
When you camp out west in a park, it’s likely bears have been through the campsite numerous times. It’s like deer walking through your back yard.
If you don’t want to camp where a bear has been, camp in your suburban back yard.
Bears in Utah
The last known Grizzly bear in Utah was Old Ephraim and was shot by a sheep herder near Logan in 1923. Today there is a healthy black bear population in Utah . While most black bears are black, it is fairly common for black bears to be brown or cinnamon color and a rare few are blond in color.Camping in Bear Country
Keep yourself, your camp or your cabin clean. Don't inadvertently feed the bears by leaving food and garbage out where bears can find it. Bears have an extremely good sense of smell and will be attracted to food if it is left out. If a bear finds food in a camp, it may become trained to look to humans for food. Perfumes, lotions and colognes can also attract bears, so it is best to leave those at home.
Most importantly do not try to feed the bears. Ever! While bears can look tame and friendly, they are still a wild predetorial animal and can attack at any time. Never feed the bears or leave food out where bears can find it.
If you have a car, lock food and garbage in the trunk and don't leave coolers out. If you are camping suspend food and garbage 8 to 10 feet high and 4 feet from a tree. Don't leave food or cook food in the tent or near your sleeping area, try to keep the cooking area separated from the sleeping area – the farther the better. It is also best if you sleep in clean clothes. Leave your other clothes, the ones you cooked in or spilled dinner on, with the food.Bear Encounter
If you encounter a bear leave it alone and the bear will usually move on by itself. If it comes into a camp or a cabin, get out of the area and call the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources at (801) 538-4700. If you come upon a bear accidentally and it is close, back slowly away, or scream, yell, make noise and try to scare it away. If it attacks, be aggressive and fight back. Black bears will usually run if they encounter people.
Recorded killings by black bears this century total only 28 across North America . Most of these killings were unprovoked acts of predation. The 500,000 black bears of North America kill fewer than one person per 3 years, on the average, despite hundreds of thousands of encounters. For each death from a black bear across North America, there are approximately 17 deaths from spiders, 25 deaths from snakes, 67 deaths from dogs, 150 deaths from tornadoes, 180 deaths from bees and wasps, 374 deaths from lightning, and 90,000 homicides in the United States alone (data from the National Center for Health Statistics, 1980-1983).
Black bears usually retreat before people are aware of them. Their hearing is more sensitive than a human's, and their broad, soft foot pads allow them to move quietly downwind where they can best identify dangers. They may stand upright to see farther. If need be, they can run faster than 25 mph or climb trees as fast as squirrels.
I think you are on to something. It can be a coincidence. I wonder if the bears are legal residents, or are they illegals who snuck up from Mexico who are doing the mauling American bears won’t do.
Of maybe bears are a lot smarter than we think, and they’ve received the signal to start the counter-insurgency.
Seriously, As people develop more land, and encroach more into the wilderness areas, we will encounter more wild animals who are running out of places to stay hidden. And as we lose our training in camping safety, and watch more movies showing wild animals talking and friendly and being “just like us”, our children and apparently adults have forgotten how dangerous wildlife can be.
When we camped Philmont, we received a lot of training about bears. We still didn’t respect the bears, I guess, as I have pictures from when we snuck up to a bear that was near our camp. We had bears come through our camp at night, but all our food was up high.
They told us in no uncertain terms that even not washing your mouth out sufficiently after brushing your teeth could lead to a bear attack. Even sweat-smelling soaps were prohibited (OK, I’m sure we showered once or twice but I don’t really rememeber it).
So even though the adult involved said there was no “food” in the tent, who knows? What is he going to say? Maybe the kid had a piece of gum he was chewing, or in his pocket, or a mint, or any little piece of candy that he thought “wouldn’t be a problem”.
It’s a terrible way to learn a lesson.
So they did post warnings. I bet the paperwork that came with the camping permit also had a section on the dangers of bears.
Of course there is an emotional aspect. But FR is not a counseling service, we are an issues-oriented political discussion board.
It’s what we do, discuss the issue, without regard to the fact that nothing is the same when it’s personal.
I’ve seen discussions shut down in an instant when freepers discover that the poster was actually the one involved in the tragedy. We know how to be compassionate, but it isn’t the point of most of the discussions here.
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