Posted on 04/18/2007 7:52:06 AM PDT by pby
Does the Lord say the Lord's Prayer is vain repetition? I haven't found Him saying that anywhere in the Bible. He does say that the heathens like to use vain repetitions and that we should not be like them.
I will second that.
There is nothing wrong with worshiping Jesus and Our Heavenly Father. You can repeat His name with joy and thanksgiving all you want. But the Lord does give us a model for prayer with specific instructions not to be like the heathens.
I personally believe that using the model in the Bible known as the Lord’s Prayer, is the best form of prayer because it was given to us by Christ Himself.
Thank you. I believe that God has already given me permission to do that, although pby would dispute that. I further believe that this form of prayer, His name spoken in "quiet joy" is what has been meant by "contemplative prayer" for centuries. Of course Christ taught us the Lord's Prayer. He is to be our example. He and the disciples and the prophets prayed in other ways as well.
That's wonderful. Thanks for sharing.
You’re quite welcome.
I do love catholics too, I just think they’re wrong.
Will have to read later, it’s a long one!
Ditto.
I have a relative who is a bishop in the Catholic Church and another that is a priest.
It is long...but I think that it performs a good comparison.
yes.
Catholic-bashing post?
Not necessarily.
tl:dr
Could you condense that for those of us who don’t have a couple of hours to spare? ^_^
Way to go, Shirley MacLaine.
Some audio:
The Dangers of Contemplative Prayer Presented by Bob DeWaay and Dick Kuffel Broadcast Monday, April 9, 2007 In a DVD titled Be Still and Know that I am God, Beth Moore and other evangelicals like Richard Foster promote a mystical approach to prayer and spirituality. We compare Moore's interpretation of Exodus 33:7-11 with the true meaning of the text. MP3 (duration 00:30:18) Many problems arise if we equate the presence of God in our lives with subjective religious experience. If we continually seek to feel God’s presence through contemplative practice, the result will be that we will experience further spiritual problems. This seeking will cause us to strive for “feelings” rather than obedience. This wrongful pursuit will shake our assurance because the little assurance we have will be based on subjective experience rather than on the historical reality of the cross. In the end we will neglect our primary calling.
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Glaring Omissions
Brother Lawrence was a Catholic monk who lived out his days in a monastery. This alone explains the emphasis of his teachings and their glaring deficiencies. Brother Lawrence would be considered a “contemplative” teacher. His practice was one of inner meditation that took place within a monastic community. Is this the life to which God has called his children? Is “practicing His presence” the “most excellent way to go to God”? In noting the glaring omissions in Brother Lawrence’s teachings, the answer to these questions is No.
What has God called His people to do? In the wake of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, Luke outlines God’s “means of grace” which we are to practice. “So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer” (Acts 2:41-42). Those who received the Gospel message were baptized and continued in the Gospel through devotion to the apostles teaching (the word of God), prayer, fellowship, and the Lord’s supper.8 All those who subsequently believe are to go and live likewise in this Christ-centered way. With this as the divinely prescribed framework of the Christian’s practice, how does this compare with Brother Lawrence’s teaching?
The most glaring and foundational omission in “Practicing the Presence of God” is the lack of primacy placed on the word of God. Our “practice” must be grounded on the precepts of the Scriptures. Our lives are transformed through the Holy Spirit illuminating and applying the truths of God’s word. Without this all-important devotion we will take our eyes off Christ and become susceptible to all sorts of spiritual pitfalls. Note the Spirit-led author of Hebrews’ concern:
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. (Hebrews 5:12-14)
If we are to grow in the faith and be sanctified by the Spirit we must devote ourselves to the word of God. And note very clearly this is what we are called to practice (5:14). We are to continually devote ourselves to the word of God. As we continue to dig into the inexhaustible treasure of the Scriptures we will fix our eyes on Christ and be trained to discern good from evil.
While “Practicing the Presence of God” is said to be constant prayer and consciousness of God’s presence, the truth is our prayer life must informed and guided by His word. Without the guiding light of the word of God our prayer life will be deficient; the Scriptures teach us how to pray.
Bob DeWaay, Critical Issues Commentary Issue 97. http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue97b.htm
Issue 84 - Means of Grace God's Provision for Our Salvation and Sanctification
This article focuses on the Biblical means God has provided for all Christians to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. These means may not be flashy, popular, or trendy, but they will always be effectual when practiced in faith. The following are NOT God’s means of changing lives: mystical practices, self-help groups, Purpose Driven Life study groups, contemplative prayer, twelve step groups, or going to meetings where people are “slain under the power.” These and other popular programs are sad, unbiblical substitutes that eventually lead to spiritual impoverishment.
Many evangelicals are not familiar with the expression “means of grace,” terminology that is common in Lutheran and Reformed theology. The reason many are not familiar with the idea of “means of grace” is that they have alternatives in their traditions like “spiritual disciplines” often billed as “secrets to a deeper spiritual life.” Unbiblical practices such as “contemplative prayer” have found their way into many churches under the ill defined banner of “spiritual disciplines.” Alternatively, since they are defined in Scripture, means of grace do not multiply as innovative spiritual practices are invented. We need to understand means of grace and see that they are God’s plan to provide for our growth in conformity to the image of Christ.
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As with other means of grace, prayer must be of a certain nature to be valid. Prayers must be offered in faith (James 1:6; 5:15). The New Testament has much to say about prayer; but nothing is more important than a valid faith which comes from the gospel and is solidly grounded on the finished work of Christ. Prayer has lent itself to much abuse over the centuries and does to this day. For example, in the last CIC issue I discussed Christian mystics who use the phrase “contemplative prayer” to teach Christians to turn inward through altered states of consciousness. This is not the type of prayer taught in the Bible.
The Bible states many times that Christ is risen, ascended and sits at the right hand of the Father (Acts 2:33; 5:31; Ephesians 1:20; Hebrews 10:12; 1Peter 3:22). Prayer is not turning inward, but looking upward! Jesus said pray like this, “Our Father who art in heaven. . .” Paul said this, “If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth” (Colossians 3:1, 2). The “throne of grace” is the very throne room of God and it is in heaven, not in the human psyche. As we pray, we know we have access to God in heaven through the risen Christ.
The early disciples gathered in prayer. They sought God’s help in their time of need. They doubtless prayed for one another, as Paul later taught in his epistles. There is a very early prayer recorded in Acts 4:24-29. In it the apostles prayed when they were being forbidden to preach the gospel. They quoted scripture in their prayer, confessed to God that they believed in His sovereignty, and asked for boldness to preach His word. Yes, there is grace to be found in our prayers to God. Prayers are a means of grace, not a means of revelation. The revelation is the “apostles teaching.” The prayers are based on that teaching and in accordance with that teaching. The answer to the disciple’s prayer in Acts 4 was not personal revelations from God. They were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke God’s word with boldness (Acts 4:31).
Simply gathering together with other believers and uttering prayers of praise and thanksgiving, intercession, and petition (with faith and hope) is powerful in its utter simplicity. God has been thereby sustaining people with a simple Christian faith throughout the nations and throughout the history of the church.
There is no “secret” to prayer. God does not tell us to find spiritual “masters” with secret, esoteric, prayer techniques. God hides things from those who deem themselves “wise and prudent.” But he has revealed His glorious Messianic salvation to babes (Matthew 11:25). The “prayer secrets” genre of Christian literature is horrible and useless. Such writings have deceived thousands. No wonder some Christian traditions deny that prayer is a means of grace -- it has been abused and misused by so many. Jesus warned us about useless prayer techniques: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words” (Matthew 6:7).
I have before me a book that contains hundreds of pages of “how to” techniques and utterances for every conceivable need or situation.19 The author had three visions, and embarked on a many year process of learning an “arsenal” of “field-tested weapons.”20 This is typical of the “spiritual disciplines” approach that has deceived so many. Trained spiritual masters learn the secrets of getting close to God and write “how to” books for others to follow. This is not prayer as a means of grace, but prayer as a means to spiritual elitism. There are no super “holy men and women” who have ascended the heights and know the secrets. This tendency is much like the one warned against in the book of Hebrews.
...
I have asked people why they go to prayer seminars that teach the secrets of deeper meditation techniques. The usual answer is, “I want to get closer to God and have a deeper walk with Him.” That is a noble desire but at the heart of it is the very unbelief that the book of Hebrews is warning about. It is saying, “Even though Jesus died for my sins, even though I have access directly to the Father in heaven through Him, even though I have access through Christ to the holiest place that even the Jewish high priest could not enter (the one in heaven), and even though Jesus has granted me full access to the throne of grace to find help in any and every need, I want more. I do not believe that these things are sufficient.” This is sinful unbelief that will lead to worse deception. One does not get closer to God by a journey inward when one has access to the holiest place through Jesus Christ who is at the right hand of God. The secrets of deeper prayer are leading people away from God not to Him! These mystical practices are rooted and grounded in unbelief.
Prayer is a means of grace but only when understood and practiced Biblically and in faith. What the Bible tells us about prayer is sufficient. The simple prayer of any humble Christian goes directly to the Father in heaven through the high priestly ministry of Jesus Christ. God promises to give us grace through this changeless, Biblical means. God will never withhold His answer because we failed to learn some secret words or secret technique to get Him to give us what we want. That conception of prayer is decidedly pagan. Jesus said of the pagans, “Therefore do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need, before you ask Him” (Matthew 6:8).
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The story of Naaman the leper aptly illustrates why the means of grace are so neglected. Naaman came to Elisha hoping to find healing. Elisha told him, through the word of the Lord, to wash in the Jordan River seven times (2Kings 5:10). This infuriated Naaman who was expecting something more spectacular. He found his healing when he decided to obey because of the simple logic of his servants. For Naaman, going to the Jordan was God’s ordained means, because an authoritative prophet told him so. We have authoritative apostles (the Biblical ones) who have spoken once for all what God’s ordained means are. They seem mundane to many, so they are neglected. This is spiritually fatal!
It seems rather exciting to go to a Benny Hinn meeting and “get slain under the power.” It seems invigorating to join a forty days of purpose campaign and find out your purpose with other seekers. It feels like a powerful experience meeting Christ in your subconscious mind through contemplative prayer rather than appealing to Him in heaven where He cannot be seen, touched, or heard. It seems liberating to get rid of emotional pain through Theophostic ministry when ordinary things like Bible study, prayer and fellowship “failed.” Why come to God by His means and have pain when we can have a mystical experience and be done with our pain? The array of alternatives to God’s ordained means are many, powerful, popular, and apparently effective. The means of grace have little place in many churches for one huge reason: they are deemed irrelevant by modern religious consumers. by Bob DeWaay
Well stated, Terriergal.
Contemplative prayer is based on eastern religious practices and is not a biblical form of prayer.
The modern "Christian Pharisees" are at work removing splinters from the eyes of those who pray to Jesus in a way that they disapprove of. However, the logs in their own eyes are causing some difficulties.
This was great:
The modern “Christian Pharisees” are at work removing splinters from the eyes of those who pray to Jesus in a way that they disapprove of. However, the logs in their own eyes are causing some difficulties.
hahahahaha.
It is very difficult to comprehend how repeating and/or meditating on the Name of Jesus could possibly bring the attention of demons. Quite the opposite, I’m sure.
I understand your definition of comtemplative prayer. But I will warn you, just as PBY is trying to let people know, there are people out there who do not share your definition. They want to take over the term and make it their own. If possible, they want to lead you down the wrong path with the term.
Anything the devil’s minions can get their hands on to mislead the unwary, they will use. That is why it is imperative that we as Christians have a rock solid understanding of what the Bible says. We have to commit ourselves believing what it says and doing what the Bible says to do. A vague understanding is no longer sufficient to help us and we can’t just assume everyone uses the words the same way we do.
Their goal is to confuse and mislead you. Their ultimate hope is to separate you from Christ. If they can get you second guessing His words, they can introduce doubt. If they can introduce doubt, they can cause you to question whether what He says is true. If they can cause you to question whether what He says is true, they can get you to put your own understanding above God’s word.
For example, the Bible is very clear on what God says about the sin of homosexuality. Yet, there are “christians” who believe that the Bible is silent on the subject. They twist and contort meaning by lifting verses out of the Bible to support their ideas and use tortured definitions to make the Bible conform to their idea of truth. They have no desire to conform themselves to God’s Truth.
The way to keep from falling into that trap is to know God’s word.
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