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Posted on 03/23/2007 11:44:31 AM PDT by Eleutheria5

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To: carton253

161 posted on 03/28/2007 7:42:55 AM PDT by squarebarb
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To: squarebarb

Hi Carton I guess this thread is surviving after all.


162 posted on 03/28/2007 7:43:47 AM PDT by squarebarb
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To: carton253

If I were you I would leave any explanations of any kind out of your first chapter.

I am looking at this as if I were an agent, and an agent has hundreds of mss.'s to read in a years time and has to decide which ones she can sell.After all that's how an agent makes a living.

Your first chapter should be all direct scenes --- direct, pungent, sensual deszcription. Otherwise you will lose your reader (agent).

Did you ever have a friend that said something like 'Oh you can't believe what happened! It was so unfair!' and then proceeds to go into long, long explanations leading up to whatever happened and all you want them to do is just tell you what happened!

So start with the atmosphere of the day, the tattered banners of the 18th North Carolina, the sound of the creek, the sound of Jackson's horse, then the rifleman sighting down his barrel, then the shot, and then the BIG surprise that he misses Jackson entirely.

When you convey information through dialogue, it is called exposition. Exposition is not good. Try to never convey information through dialogue. If you do, consense it into narrative summary.

Chapter 2 then could start with some descrption of the position of the armies.

I know this is a long answere but you have worked very hard on your novel and I am sure it deserves every chance at success.

To avoid any amateurish mistakes, order Making Shapely Fiction by Jerome Stern --- it will explain things like 'tags' and 'narrative summary' etc. It is one of the best books I have ever read on writing and it's funny.

You want your mss. to appear professional and experienced when you send it to an agent.

Hope that helps. How are you over there?


163 posted on 03/28/2007 7:51:06 AM PDT by squarebarb
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To: squarebarb
It is spring and the air is warm but contains the promise of the desert. Soon, the skies will remain redunant blue with no clouds to shield the rays of the sun. Moisture in any form, dew or rain, will be a forgotten memory by May, well, not unless you count the sweat on my brow. Then Tel Aviv will be awashed in moisture!

At first, my chapter had no history - just the 18th North Carolina in the dark waiting for the threat to materialize around the bend in the road.

Could it be that the first chapter is just too long. If I just did the missing of Jackson and the orders to Hill to cut the Yankees off at the US Ford... then it might be a faster easier read.

What do you think of putting the terrain and the history leading up to Chancellorsville into a prologue. That way it is optional? If you don't know the history...read it. If you do, do what I do to prologues... pass them by. Introductions too except they usually are the most important part of the book.

164 posted on 03/28/2007 8:09:17 AM PDT by carton253 (Not enough space to express how I truly feel.)
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To: squarebarb
Okay, by taking out all explanations, the first chapter is reduced considerably. Now, what I need to do is go over my description with a fine tooth comb adding the sensual stuff you recommend. There is a lot of it in there already. I just need to see if there is anything more I can add to bring the scene alive. For, really, we are talking...what three minutes in time.

Please do not get tired of being an "instructor". I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it.

165 posted on 03/28/2007 8:18:25 AM PDT by carton253 (Not enough space to express how I truly feel.)
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To: carton253

It's great that I was of some help!

I was thumbing through Nicholas Nickleby for some examples of Dicken's incredible gift with lively description. Will also search through Tale of Two Cities.

We have just come out of a two-year drought here, with two good rains over the last week or so. I got so tired of that crisp dry smell, and of the endless blue days and the weatherless weather. Now things smell damp, and soft, and the colors of all things are so much brighter. I pray the rains keep coming.


166 posted on 03/28/2007 10:22:12 AM PDT by squarebarb
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To: carton253

"putting the terrain etc. leading up to Chancellorsville..."

That would work if you personalized it somehow. For instance --- whatever time of year it is, there could be farm work going on. I.e. 'the farm wagon loaded with field corn lumbered through the hilly terrain, and the farmer spilled his load at a ..." some particular site with a bluff or whatever is important. Even better, 'Farmer Witherspoon's last load of corn spilled repeatedly on the hilly terrain..."

Or if it's not hilly, then his wagon moves easily over the flat ground...

Then you get your description through a person.


167 posted on 03/28/2007 10:26:32 AM PDT by squarebarb
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To: squarebarb

Because of your efforts. We will just continue posting and before you know it...


168 posted on 03/28/2007 1:35:28 PM PDT by carton253 (Not enough space to express how I truly feel.)
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To: carton253

"I was told I needed to infuse my knowledge, findings, and interpretations into the book. What the person suggested was that I step out of the narrative and add my insights. But, am I not doing that by changing history and having the narrative continue? Everything that happens after the 18th North Carolina misses is based on my knowledge, findings (lots of research went into the story) and intepretations.

Can't I have the characters do that for me. Speak my findings and interpretations? "

That's how you should do it. Don't tell them what you know. Show it. Use your insights to make your characters come to life. I have previously mentioned the Clunking One, Harry Turtledove, who invented alternative history. Read a bit of his civil war writings, and if you aren't screaming at the written page, "not like that, you idiot! Stonewall Jackson would never have said anything like that!", check to see if you're still breathing. He's a great starting point, because while he's an expert historian, he's a horrible, horrible writer. That's why I read him.


169 posted on 03/28/2007 5:58:44 PM PDT by Eleutheria5
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To: All
Hello to the Righter's Club.

I know that people are busy with their every day lives and sometimes do not have time to visit this thread. But, I am going to do what I can to see this thread stays visible and useful.

So, ping to the top.

170 posted on 03/29/2007 9:31:25 AM PDT by carton253 (Not enough space to express how I truly feel.)
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To: Al Gator; carton253; CharlesWayneCT; Corin Stormhands; Dolphy; Dr.Zoidberg; Eleutheria5; ...
All of us have weaknesses and strengths in writing. Mine falls is definitely the "descriptive narrative." I would rather write dialog than anything else.

As I struggle with my descriptive narrative, I find it interesting that I just finished reading a Patricia Cornwall novel (I think it is my 2nd) and she uses not descriptive narrative at all. I can't tell you what the main character of her book looks like. I am sure that she has described her in previous books, but her stark style and the popularity of her books make me think that maybe the "descriptive" part of the narrative is not all that important as long as you spin a pretty good yarn.

One line in the book reads, "the window was stubborn, but not as stubborn as Marino." It is stark, but conveys a image that leaves it up to the reader to imagine.

It is the like paintings of George Seurat, who didn't mix his paints on the pallet, but painted separate dots of color on his canvas because the human eye could mix the colors more powerfully than he could.

I would like to open the discussion on how others write descriptive narrative, or the role of descriptive narrative, and perhaps I will learn something that I can employ in my own writing.

171 posted on 03/30/2007 5:07:51 AM PDT by carton253 (Not enough space to express how I truly feel.)
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To: RosieCotton; Eleutheria5

I write columns for a newspaper, rather than fiction (many of my detractors suggest otherwise of course :-)).

But for a typical column of 700-750 words, I usually start by writing over a thousand words. It usually takes less time to do that than to cull the result down to the appropriate size.

I'm looking forward to participating in NanoWrimo this year.


172 posted on 03/30/2007 6:13:05 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CindyDawg; squarebarb

My daughter plays a game at school where they pass a paper around the class, with each person adding the next word to a story.

When I saw the first couple, I thought it was stupid. But they've been getting pretty good at it.


173 posted on 03/30/2007 6:15:28 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: carton253
First, I think to do this right you need to start a new thread for each new topic or facet like the other regular special focus groups do.

Second, my observation is that you can go crazy trying to figure out what agents/publishers want. My writing has been compared to that of Nicholas Sparks (which I disagree) and John Grishom (mmmmm, maybe) by agents. Both times I said "thanks you," and both times they said, "But I hate the way he writes."

Sort of like the Yankees saying, "Thanks, but we don't need another lefty who throws 98 mph fast balls."

Go figure.

174 posted on 03/30/2007 6:17:57 AM PDT by Lee'sGhost (Crom! Non-Sequitur = Pee Wee Herman.)
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To: Lee'sGhost
Go figure indeed.

Of course, writing is very objective.

As for starting a new thread for each topic... I will let the others chime in on that. If this is supposed to be like the Hobbit Hole (that's what it was compared to) then that thread is more like a running commentary that gets a new thread only when it reaches maximum capacity.

I am only trying to stimulate conversation until the thread gets a life of its own because I don't want it to die away.

BTW, did you see my post where I complimented your tagline?

175 posted on 03/30/2007 6:24:39 AM PDT by carton253 (Not enough space to express how I truly feel.)
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To: carton253
As for starting a new thread for each topic... I will let the others chime in on that. If this is supposed to be like the Hobbit Hole (that's what it was compared to) then that thread is more like a running commentary that gets a new thread only when it reaches maximum capacity.

IMO, I think starting a different thread for each topic would be better. It makes it easier to keep the subject matter segregated, but that's just IMHO.
176 posted on 03/30/2007 6:33:16 AM PDT by JamesP81 (Eph 6:12)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

I play that with my grand kids. I'll start a story and they add to it.


177 posted on 03/30/2007 6:33:30 AM PDT by CindyDawg (Thank you, Lord.)
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To: JamesP81

Two votes for a new thread for each topic. What say the rest of you?


178 posted on 03/30/2007 6:36:21 AM PDT by carton253 (Not enough space to express how I truly feel.)
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To: carton253

I enjoy descriptive narrative. One of my most favorite novels is "Prince of Tides" by Pat Conroy. His descriptive narrative is so strong that I can almost smell the low country, the marshes.

As for me, writing dialogue is so very tedious.

THanks for the ping.


179 posted on 03/30/2007 6:52:52 AM PDT by marsapan
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To: carton253

I missed that. But thanks!


180 posted on 03/30/2007 6:58:40 AM PDT by Lee'sGhost (Crom! Non-Sequitur = Pee Wee Herman.)
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