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How Scientific Evidence is Changing the Tide of the Evolution vs. Intelligent Design Debate
http://www.geocities.com/wade_schauer/Changing_Tide.pdf ^ | 1/7/2007 | Wade Schauer

Posted on 01/08/2007 2:16:07 PM PST by Sopater

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To: timberlandko

"PS: You misspelled 'possessing'"

And you misspelled "accreditations."


41 posted on 01/11/2007 8:58:13 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Tribune7; RobRoy; GourmetDan
I'm going to have to come to the defense of my semantically obsessed colleague here. GourmetDan is correct in asserting that science requires a natural cause to all events.

To assert that a supernatural anything is the cause for any event, observation, anything, is to take it out of the realm of science.

Science does not deny the possibility of the existence of the supernatural it simply says that, essentially "since the supernatural is untestable, it is not disprovable, and is not acceptable as science."

In regards to this particular essay, however, I remain skeptical about the claims of ID, since there is no positive evidence FOR it, only evidence which does not completely match current theories on how evolution works. ID is merely advanced as the only possible alternative... and remains untestable, and, as far as I know, has not made any predictions which have been subsequently observed.

(Such as the spontaneous, unprecedented generation of a new species of anything, which is what ID claims occurs)
42 posted on 01/12/2007 2:15:39 AM PST by 49th (This space for rent.)
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To: 49th

Well, I agree with what you say about supernatural vs. science. By definition, science cannot be used too investigate something outside its limitations.

That is why it MUST be silent regarding human consciousness, which is supernatural and untestable. Only each persons personal experience with it even suggests it exists. Which is why so many of us, sometime in grade school, questioned if we were the only one and everyone else is merely a figment of our imagination.

I am using the strict definition of "SUPER"-natural - outside of nature. And it is exciting to think we experience it all day, every day, yet it cannot be weighed, measured or explained in any scientific way. It is outside of science, yet there it is! Cool stuff.


43 posted on 01/12/2007 5:13:58 AM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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To: 49th; GourmetDan
GourmetDan is correct in asserting that science requires a natural cause to all events.

Science is merely a system used to acquire knowledge about nature. It does not even pretend to assert causes to all events.

44 posted on 01/12/2007 5:26:08 AM PST by Tribune7 (Conservatives hold bad behavior against their leaders. Dims don't.)
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To: 49th

You have an event in which there is no known natural explanation -- the start of the universe, the existence of energy/matter, the existence of life. If you should say there is a natural explanation you are not practicing science. What you are doing is practicing faith.


45 posted on 01/12/2007 5:34:28 AM PST by Tribune7 (Conservatives hold bad behavior against their leaders. Dims don't.)
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To: 49th
"I'm going to have to come to the defense of my semantically obsessed colleague here."

While it may appear as a 'semantic obsession', it is actually a foundational assumption that is often overlooked.

Since science *requires* a natural explanation, we should not be surprised that is generates them. This actually places 'science' on a lower plane than religion because, in science, reason is subservient to the 'a priori' assumption of naturalism.

The oft-claimed 'superiority' of science as an explanatory methodology is actually an inferiority if understood correctly.

46 posted on 01/12/2007 6:09:25 AM PST by GourmetDan
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To: RegulatorCountry
RegulatorCountry wrote:

"PS: You misspelled 'possessing'" And you misspelled "accreditations."

I know; actually, as written, that isn't even a legitimate word. Also in that post are a few grammar/usage and punctuation errors, planted there for the pedagogic entertainment of the terminally punctilious. Enjoy.

47 posted on 01/12/2007 10:57:46 AM PST by timberlandko (Murphy was an optimist.)
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To: RobRoy
I make no assumptions. I have knowledge.

What do you know? How do you know? How do you know that you know? Ever heard of Bernard Haise?

48 posted on 01/12/2007 11:01:38 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale

What I know is from personal experience. Everything else is just believing what someone else says or writes down.

How do you KNOW Washington was the first president?

I KNOW that the force we label "gravity" results in what we call "falling". I BELIEVE it is what causes planetary orbits. But whether it pulls or pushes is pure speculation, since we can only observe its effect and have no knowledge whatsoever how it works. We only know that it does, and htat it's effect can be measured and predicted to a large degree.


49 posted on 01/12/2007 11:07:30 AM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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To: RobRoy

I posed four questions. I am interested in the answer to the fourth only since the first three are thousands of years old and have yet to be answered to everybody's satisfaction even though some claim their personal revelation is somehow public rather than merely subjective. Has anybody heard of Bernard Haise?


50 posted on 01/12/2007 11:15:56 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale

"Ever heard of Bernard Haise?"
No. Do you mean Bernard Haisch?


51 posted on 01/12/2007 11:16:40 AM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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To: RobRoy

Yes, have you heard of him?


52 posted on 01/12/2007 11:18:39 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale

Um. Yes, that was implied in my response.


53 posted on 01/12/2007 11:21:02 AM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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To: RobRoy

Have you had a chance to read his short book--The God Theory?


54 posted on 01/12/2007 11:23:11 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale

No, but am aware of it. I personally fall into the "matrix" theory. I think mass is basically like coagulated light. Nothing really exists because as we break down the parts, we find each part (like an atom) is basically mostly "nothing". I know this is nothing new, but I like presenting it to teenagers like that. They get a kick out of it and it is something they can wrap their brains around.

It will be interesting if we ever can prove that the "Dick Tracy" gravity drive would be possible.

I believe he also wrote music.


55 posted on 01/12/2007 11:31:50 AM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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To: RightWhale

I may have to read that book. I read a review and saw this paragraph:

"Esoteric traditions of many religions claim that light and consciousness are the basis of the material world. Drawing upon his government-funded, published research into the physics of the electromagnetic zero-point field, Haisch posits that there may be a deep truth in such ideas. He also suggests that eventually science will discover that consciousness is not simply an epiphenomenon emerging from brain chemistry, but rather that we are, indeed, immortal conscious beings sharing in God's own infinite consciousness."

That is one of my biggies - that human consciousness is not the brain, but the immortal spirit, etc...


56 posted on 01/12/2007 11:36:41 AM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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To: RobRoy

That appears to be the essence of his position. However, the paragraph might mean little to nothing to one who has not been exposed to his definitions and reasoning. He is not a dynamic writer and his speaking is likewise low-key and not memorable. He has a PhD in physics (astronomy), but even more important for this he has extensive schooling in academic religious matters. His book mentioned above might be compared to an outline of his topic, which will do for those who have read extensively but will be less than useful for those who have not yet begun reading widely.


57 posted on 01/12/2007 12:01:44 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale
Having read The God Theory, and being likewise somewhat experientially familiar with many of Haisch's published papers and articles, I find refreshing, and worth consideration as "Saving Grace" if such may be found, his clear and unambiguous acknowledgment that he offers naught but speculation, speculation which, albeit stemming from an informed perspective, very well might be totally off-base. His credentials are far superior to those of many - if not most - denizens of the kookosphere, and to his credit he himself freely admits there is much we do not know and about which we merely guess.
58 posted on 01/12/2007 12:51:52 PM PST by timberlandko (Murphy was an optimist.)
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To: timberlandko

I find little in that book that I have not found elsewhere written long ago. He appears to be in the ballpark of the main meanings of many of his terms, but does not present all the common alternatives. He might be right in his main thesis yet it cannot be objectively proven at present--perhaps never. Still, as far as he goes, he does serve the purpose of widening our horizon a little.


59 posted on 01/12/2007 1:00:23 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale

I was mildly interested in his book when I first heard of it. I researched it a little deeper and came to the conclusion that I really need to read it.


60 posted on 01/12/2007 1:42:29 PM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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