Rick Warren disciples: Where are you?

WorldNetDaily ^ | November 21, 2006 | Joseph Farah

[TommyDale]

Millions and millions of people have purchased his books.

His California church attracts thousands every Sunday.

He seems to be the go-to guy whenever the establishment, ultra-secular press wants to quote an evangelical leader they like.

I'm talking about Rick Warren, author of "The Purpose Driven Life" and the pastor of the Saddleback Church.

Ever since I first pointed out the way he betrayed the persecuted church and our Jewish brothers and sisters living in captivity in the totalitarian police state of Syria, I have been expecting to get blasted.

Millions and millions of people have purchased his books.

His California church attracts thousands every Sunday.

He seems to be the go-to guy whenever the establishment, ultra-secular press wants to quote an evangelical leader they like.

I'm talking about Rick Warren, author of "The Purpose Driven Life" and the pastor of the Saddleback Church.

Ever since I first pointed out the way he betrayed the persecuted church and our Jewish brothers and sisters living in captivity in the totalitarian police state of Syria, I have been expecting to get blasted.

I thought for sure I would hear from these millions of well-educated, well-informed, biblically astute purpose-driven disciples.

It has been six days. God created the whole universe in that amount of time. And, so far, I haven't heard one cogent argument, apologia or rationalization for Warren's actions by any of his flock.

I'm told he's got one of the best PR machines money can buy. He sure is not getting his money's worth.

On the other hand, I can tell you hundreds of thousands of people are reading my critiques of his misadventures in misguided foreign policy. We can actually count those readers on WND. And they are being spread far and wide in a viral way by e-mailers and bloggers.

Is the strategy now to ignore Farah?

Is the strategy to pretend WND doesn't exist?

Is the strategy to ignore the hard facts presented here about what Rick Warren said and did in Syria and hope the controversy blows over?

I've got news for you. It's not going to blow over. I won't let it.

I demand an apology from Rick Warren – not to me, for heaven's sake, but to Christians in Syria who choose to worship outside the state-approved churches he toured. I demand an apology to the Jews who suffer the humiliating life of dhimmitude in Syria today while Rick Warren tells the world they don't exist.

This is a world I know something about.

It was just about a year ago that my Jerusalem bureau chief, Aaron Klein, was prevented from entering Syria for one reason – he's Jewish!

Funny, I don't remember Rick Warren protesting that action – minor, really, compared to the indignities Jews in Syria live with daily, but well-publicized nonetheless.

Perhaps Rick Warren hasn't seen the Syrian TV show – a big hit in Damascus – that renews the blood libel direct from "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," entertaining millions with a graphic story of a rabbi who slits the throat of a young Christian boy so he can use it to prepare the Passover motzah.

Perhaps Rick Warren hasn't noticed that the Syrian government has published an updated version of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," an anti-Semitic story that claims Jews run the world by proxy.

Perhaps Rick Warren is not aware of hundreds of years of genocidal pogroms that have taken place in Syria at the expense of the Jews.

But of course he must know about all these things, because he says he's an avid reader of my column and an expert on the Middle East because of his membership in the Council on Foreign Relations.

Rick Warren thinks it is commendable that Syria has opened its arms to Christians fleeing Iraq. What he doesn't know or doesn't say is that many of those Christians fleeing Iraq are fleeing bullets and bombs and terrorists that have entered Iraq through Syria. He also doesn't explain President Bashar Assad's penchant for keeping his friends close and his enemies closer.

I'm not going to let this matter slide. Not me. Not this Syrian-Lebanese-American Christian journalist. If Rick Warren thinks dialogue with everyone is so great – let the dialogue begin right here. The persecuted church in Syria can't speak for itself. But I will stand with them in answering Rick Warren's lies about their tormentors.

[farmer18th]

Of course, if posters want to do better than Rick, I'd be happy to compare their results with his.

What are, exactly, his "results?" Book sales? Tithing?

Is the divorce rate higher or lower in his church than in the greater community? Drug use higher or lower? Unwed motherhood higher or lower? Would you be more or less likely to trust a Saddleback businessman than his secular counterpart?

Jesus said "by their fruits, ye will know them." What are the fruits of Warren's ministry?

[Quix]

As attested to by FREEPERS who've been members of his main, original, founding church . . .

his fruit for THE KINGDOM are VERY CONSIDERABLY GREATER on a number of scores than decried in the post I'm responding to.

Thankfully, God is his judge and paymaster.

I'm personally thankful for the souls entered into The Kingdom; Biblically matured in The Kingdom; affirmed and encouraged in The Kingdom by the 10's of thousands as a result of his ministry.

I'm thankful for the thousands of marriages saved.

I'm thankful for the thousands of children saved from drug abuse and prison.

I'm thankful for the thousands of spouse and child abuse incidents interrupted, stopped and prevented.

I'm thankful for the Scriptures being injected wholesale and meatily into 100's of thousands of lives.

I'm thankful for those lives being immersed in unadulterated Scripture repeatedly.

I'm thankful God has a much different perspective on Rick than all the naysayers combined.

I tend to think that naysayers get overly stuck on

"!DON'T!"
"!CAN'T!"
"!STOP-IT--[cause I didn't initiate it]!"
"!'TAIN'T MY PRISSY ORTHODOX SO IT HAS TO BE PREVENTED!"

The disciples came to Him complaining about those casting out demons in His name . . .

[Quix]

Letters to the Simon
Our Readers Respond: A Letter from Rick Warren
By Our Readers
Jul 28, 2006



Rick Warren: Jesus Would Not Have Approved

I used to think that only journalists were lazy and relied on the articles of others, but I’ve since learned that bloggers are lazy too. Both tend to just repeat what others have said -- without checking the accuracy -- instead of doing their own original research.

There were a number of popular errors in your article, I ask you to correct.

He's just another pastor who treats Christianity like big business.

Actually, I teach pastors that the church is NOT a business. Here are direct quotes from Purpose Driven Church about what I really believe:
“The church is a Body, not a business! It is an organism, not an organization. We must avoid the error that all it takes to grow a church is organization, management, and marketing. The church is not a business! I’ve talked to some pastors who act as if the church is merely a human enterprise with few prayers thrown in for good measure. After listening to them, I’ve wondered, “Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this?”

Unfortunately, many churches can be explained away in terms of a standard Sunday school, an efficient organization, and a balanced budget. Nothing supernatural ever happens there and few lives are genuinely changed.

All of our plans, programs, and procedures are worthless without God’s anointing. Psalm 127 says: “Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain.” We must never forget whose church it is. Jesus said, “I will build MY church” (Matt. 16:18, italics added).
While it is fine for a business to be market-driven (give the customer whatever he wants), the church has a higher calling!

Enter the office of Rick Warren and you'll see an interesting mantra alongside his requisite Bible trappings. It doesn't advocate forgiveness or claim Moses as its author, yet it speaks to the very heart of what Warren's sprawling evangelical empire is about: What is our business? Who is our customer? What does the customer consider value?

This falsehood has been repeated in article several times but it is a lie. I’ve never had such a statement in my office. It was a poster in Bill Hybel’s office, not mine. People constantly confuse our churches.

Warren said in a 2005 interview with Fortune Magazine (Drucker passed away later that year). "He honed into me hundreds of one-liners and taught me that growth always comes from the outside from people who are not now using your product, or listening to your message, or using your services."

Again, this is a quote from someone else, not me. The Fortune article had almost everything wrong and when I tried to get the editors to correct the errors, they refused. The writer apologized to me personally, saying that the editors disliked pastors.. I have never made such a quote

Even the methods used to sell the book to the great unwashed formed the basis of "PyroMarketing," a book that so thoroughly deconstructs Warren's meteoric rise on the bestseller's list that Warren pressured the publisher "to censor all references to his book, because he was concerned that it would make people think his phenomenal success was driven primarily by network marketing techniques."

The first reporter got this wrong in the first article, and not a single reporter since has bothered to inquire if Stielstra’s claims were accurate. Truth: The man who claimed that he “created” the success of The Purpose Driven Life through his so-called “pyromarketing” technique actually had nothing- not a single thing - to do with the creation of either 40 days of purpose for churches or the distribution of my book. It was simply word-of-mouth, not any advertising, but he was trying to make a name for himself. Long after this guy was let go at Zondervan, PDL is still selling nearly a million copies a month around the world simply because lives are genuinely changed and those people want to buy the book for others. I’m writing this from the Philippines where the national police academy has used it in training for over 10,000 policemen.

The answer to that lies in Left Behind: Eternal Forces, a ridiculous real-time. Until Jonathan Hutson of Talk to Action exposed the game's violent theocratic storyline, Warren's close advisor and Purpose Driven cohort Mark Carver served on the board of the company developing the game. Hutson's research led to Carver resigning from the board and a distancing of Purpose Driven from LBH, and he official response to the situation from Purpose Driven stands at: "Rick Warren, Saddleback Church, and Purpose Driven Ministries have no connection to the development of the 'Left Behind: Eternal Forces' video game. We have not endorsed the game and have no plans to promote it... “But how does an arrangement like that get started without Warren's approval?

Truth: I had never heard of “Left Behind Eternal Forces” game until someone accused me of being associated with it on the internet! I had to call and ask what it was. Mark Carver is not my “close advisor, but one of over 500 staff members. I couldn’t possible know what each of them says or does for their friends. Come on Matt, surely you recognize that a lot of people must continually try to connect whatever their doing to the “purpose driven” phrase to imply endorsement, We fight it constantly

(In fairness to Rick Warren, no other major televangelist has come out against the game, either).

I am not a televangelist. I have never preached a service on either television or radio. I am a local church pastor.

But while Rick Warren may talk about his network of 200,000 pastors or how he's basically taken over the government of Rwanda with his purpose-driven agenda, he knows it's bad business to fully reject the video game.

I DID fully denounce and reject the game when I heard about it! And you must be joking about “taken over the government of Rwanda?”

So where does Jesus factors into Purpose Driven Life? I don't know personally. I haven't read it, nor will I. This is obvious from your statements. I dare you to read it and find out.

Rick Warren


from:

http://www.thesimon.com/magazine/articles/letters_to_the_simon/print_01203_our_readers_respond_letter_rick_warren.html

[Quix]

PDL is still selling nearly a million copies a month around the world
simply because
lives are
genuinely changed
and those people
want to buy the book
for others.
I’m writing this from the Philippines
where the national police academy
has used it in training
for over 10,000 policemen.
--Rick Warren

. . . just to highlight one not so tiny case in point.

Praise God for His faithfulness through willing servants.

[BeHoldAPaleHorse]

I think the silence from the Warren followers speaks volumes.

It may simply speak that most folks who read the Purpose-Driven Life do not read Joseph Farah or WorldNutDaily.

[TommyDale]

No, most people are aware now of the Warren heresies. Joe Farah was slow on recognizing it, actually. Many people have found out the hard way, actually experiencing painful conflict within their own churches.

[Quix]

FROM [EMPHASES due to Quix]:

LINK: http://usliberals.about.com/b/a/232670.htm

Pastor Rick Warren Corrects Me About His Ministries to the Poor, and I Have Questions

Just before Christmas, I received an email from mega-church Pastor Rick Warren, bestselling author of many books, including "The Purpose Driven Life," dubbed by Forbes magazine as "the best book on entrepreneurship, management, and leadership in print."

Pastor Warren took exception to my December 14, 2005 blog post about five leading US Christian denominations jointly issuing a statement protesting Bush 2006 budget priorities. In my post, I lumped Pastor Warren in with conservatives Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and lobbyist James Dobson as "notably absent from the national religious conversation of concern for the poor, hungry, homeless and the 45 million Americans with no health insurance ."

---------------

I promised Pastor Rick Warren that I would blog his correction to my understanding, so here are his eloquent email words....

"At Saddleback Church, we don't waste time protesting how others are not taking care of the poor; we just take care of the poor. We do it ourselves.

For instance, our 3,000 small groups recently took on the task of feeding every homeless person in our county (Orange County) 42,000 of them- three meals a day for 40 days. That meant preparing and delivering 126,000 meals a day for 40 days. It took 9,300 volunteers and over 2 million pounds of food. It had never been done before.

Also, we're paying the salaries of over 400 African American pastors who lost their churches due to Katrina, so those community leaders can continue to minister to the poor of their communities. Also our church alone has given in cash over $3 million to hurricane relief to the poor this year alone. Many of us, who are not protestors, are deeply concerned about the sick, the poor, the illiterate, the jobless, the elderly, those with HIIV/AIDS and the immigrants- not just here, but all around the world too. 90% of all the profits from The Purpose Driven Life goes to our Acts of Mercy foundation that focuses on these issues.

We just happen to believe it is the direct responsibility of the CHURCH to care for these folks, not government bureaucracies which waste a lot before it gets to the end user.

The best example is Katrina relief. Tens of thousands of local churches were helping the survivors long before FEMA or the Red Cross got there, and they will still be helping the poor, long after FEMA and Red Cross pulls out."

---------------

I have a new (and duly corrected) admiration for Pastor Warren's and Saddleback Church's ministries of compassion and outreach to the poor, and I deeply thank the pastor for his response. In fact, I look forward to visting his church sometime in 2006, since I live nearby.

His response, though raises many questions for me. Here are a couple....

1. Your "40 Days of Community" program is obviously a wonderful campaign for churches to reach a helping hand out to the hungry and homeless in their local communities. But what happens to them when the 40 days are up?

As the five religious leaders observed in their 2005 letter to President Bush, "Some contend that with the proper support faith-based charities will step forward to fill the gap created by the government's retreat. But this flies in the face of the lessons that we, as religious leaders, have learned first hand. Our churches operate thousands of charities from the parochial to the international.

Believe us when we tell you that neither we, nor our Evangelical brothers and sisters, nor our friends of other faiths have anywhere near the resources to turn back the rising tide of poverty in this country.

We know that programs, whether governmental or non-profit, can change people's lives for the better. New situations challenge us to respond to new conditions and to support those who are in transition out of poverty. Sadly, the 2006 budget will send more people searching for food in cupboards that, quite frequently, are bare."

2. Protest is not a waste of time. Protest is a time-honored vehicle of democracy that enabled the founding of our own United States of America. If protest is a waste of time, why do conservative Christians protest at abortion clinics?

3. The five Christian denominations that jointly issued the letter....Presbyterian Church (USA), United Methodist Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Episcopal Church and the United Church of Christ....all have substantial and ongoing, long-term ministries of compassionate outreach to the hungry, homeless, ill and poverty-stricken.

Each of those churches spends tens of millions of dollars, and more, each year helping the less fortunate among us. You are incorrect to imply that all they is do is "waste time protesting.".

4. Why are your ministries paying the salaries of 400 African-American pastors stricken by Hurricane Katrina? Why not 400 pastors of all races, ethnicities and skin colors? Or am I misinterpreting your statement?

Again, my sincere gratitude to Pastor Rick Warren for responding to my post about Christian ministries to the hungry, homeless, ill, uninsured and poverty-stricken among us. I stand humbly corrected.

[QUIX: I think her questions are typical for a liberal mentality.]

[Quix]

FROM:

link: http://www.christiantoday.com/article/rick.warren.celebrates.20000th.baptism.at.saddleback.church/5824.htm

Church
Rick Warren Celebrates 20,000th Baptism at Saddleback Church

Rick Warren's Saddleback Church in California has gone from its modest beginnings 25 years ago to its 20,000th baptism earlier in the month.

by Maria Mackay

Posted: Tuesday, March 28, 2006, 23:44 (BST)Font Scale:A A A

Saddleback Church Pastor Rick Warren (back to picture) celebrates with 24-year-old Mario Soto March 19 after Soto became the 20,000th person to be baptized in the church's history. (Baptist...Saddleback Church, founded by Purpose-driven author Pastor Rick Warren 25 years ago, has celebrated its 20,000th baptism in a modest ceremony.

When Mario Soto was immersed in the water of the church’s outdoor baptismal pool by Pastor Warren on Mar 19, his life changed forever.

Soto, a resident of Aliso Viejo, California, was baptised with around a dozen other adults that day following the congregation’s 11.15 am service.

For the 24-year-old the decision to make a public declaration of his faith in Jesus Christ was important for his new life he is about to embark on with his fiancée Amanda who cheered him on from the side of the baptismal pool following Soto’s proposal the night before.

“I had prayed all my life for her,” he said of Amanda. After she accepted his marriage proposal, he decided to go ahead with the baptism right away. “I realised I needed that foundation to start our family.”

Rick Warren also expressed his delight at taking part in the milestone 20,000th baptism for his church.

“It’s a terrific, wonderful experience,” he said. “I had the privilege of being baptised by my own father who was a pastor, so it was a meaningful time for me. You don’t forget your baptism. It’s an eternal memory.”

From Saddleback’s first ever baptism in 1980 the church has seen huge growth. Until 2004 the church’s average number of baptisms stood at 1,300 a year. The past two years have seen this number increase to an average of more than 2,000 baptisms.

But Warren insists it’s all about the lives.

“I am addicted to changed lives,” he said. “It’s not about the size of the church. The size means nothing. It’s the individual stories –- the family that gets back together, the kid that gets off drugs, the life that’s turned to Christ. The cool thing is the stories behind the 20,000 lives.”

Quix:
Clearly, some of us are better "fruit inspectors/trashers" than others.

[Quix]

actually experiencing painful conflict within their own churches.
= = =

Hmmmmm . . . one wonders . . . how many of the Rick Warren rock throwers . . . have been a source or major factor in how many painful conflicts within their own churches . . .

. . . truth in advertising and rock throwing etc.

[TommyDale]

Well, Quix -- read the article in the Wall Street Journal by Suzanne Sataline. See how many "caused" the problem versus how many were "forced to accept" the heresy.

[Blogger]

Truth - yes, I've seen Warren's methodology implemented in my own church and elsewhere. I've seen it split churches. I've seen people excluded. That's enough to not like him.

But Truth also, as a Seminarian, I've seen "Warrenology" replace solid Theology in a lot of folks lives. Preachers.

The latest stuff is just icing.

[Quix]

FROM AN ANONYMOUS FREEPER:

Quix
I often have wondered about Warren's motives and then I decided to ask my Pastor his thoughts on Warren and I'll give you what he has said..

"I guess part of this, is that I have met Rick Warren, and have heard him speak many times. I have heard him share his heart and his vision (2 years out of seminary and before he was anybody). I do not doubt either his Christianity nor his motivation. I may not agree with all of his methodology, and I know that there are many who are jealous (though they won’t admit it) of his fame, but far be it from me to cease to pray for him as he carries out his call from God. If he falls, Satan will have won a big victory, so just as I pray for other Christian leaders in positions of high profile, I will continue to lift Rick and Kay in prayer.

I remember Rick starting Saddleback with only Kay and himself out knocking on doors. They led one man to Christ in the first several months, having only one night of Bible study in their rented apartment. They went to the most affluent with no money (literally), no family nor friends, but with a vision. God built Saddleback (the Jihad, as you called it) from nothing to what it is today through his servant, Rick Warren. Some, like Hagee, have built huge churches with much monetary help, or inherited great churches, like W.A. Criswell did at FBC Dallas, but not Rick. He had nothing but a vision, and God. Has he changed over the years? I’m sure he has, but who am I to question his heart and motives. The Bible says, “By their fruit, you will know them” and he has bourn much more fruit that I have! God bless him, and God bless the Jihad! (2 Cor. 10:3-6, Romans 13:12, Ephesians 6:10-20)

Not meant to be argumentative, just my understanding of my Scriptural responsibility. (Ephesians 6:19 – 20, in particular, speaks of my responsibility for others in the ministry)

[Quix]

I tend to trust Holy Spirit and the fruit much more than the Wallstreet Journal.

[Quix]

Virtually the same thing could be said of

virtually ANY EMPHASIS

over the last several hundred years, at least that long.

I'm underwhelmed to the max by the rock throwing.

[Blogger]

Warren's ilk throws people away. In practice that is what it does. It identifies a "desirable" demographic to the exclusion of others. It is unbiblical. Unfortunately a lot of good men have bought into it. A lot of churches have been wrecked as a result.

It's man's methods done man's way - not God's methods. God draws people to himself. Warren "markets" the church to become palatable to the world. And, it isn't "rock throwing" to say so. It is a simple statement of fact, that ever since Saddleback Sam, Warren has been off the mark. Probably before then, but who was paying attention?

[Quix]

Warren's ilk throws people away. In practice that is what it does.
= = =

Hogwash.

Targeting those with whom one's God given mandate is most effective is hardly throwing people away.

But I'm sure God will take the exhortation under advisement. /sar

= = =
"It is a simple statement of fact"

LOL LOL LOL LOL ROTFLOL!

What an outrageous statement.

Can we get God's agreement in writing, signed in felt-tip?

LOL.

I've rarely found many facts proffered by the rock throwing naysayers about Rick Warren.

diatribe aplenty.
outrage aplenty.
pontifications aplenty.
jealousy aplenty.
haughtiness aplenty.
pride aplenty.
phraisaical type judgmentalism aplenty.
hostility aplenty.
hate aplenty.
distortions aplenty.

. . . facts? . . . few and far between, it seems.

[Quix]

Rick has facilitated 100's of thousands being drawn

TO GOD

and CLOSER TO GOD.

Happy to applaud that.

[Quix]

Don't Bibles still carry the verse about Christ saying HE came to bring a sword???

One size doesn't fit all.

[Blogger]

Huh?

The Gospel doesn't change Quix. And Jesus doesn't discriminate.

[editor-surveyor]

"Jabez was a good book."

It took a prayer totally out of context to create apostacy; is that good?