Rick Warren disciples: Where are you?

WorldNetDaily ^ | November 21, 2006 | Joseph Farah

[TommyDale]

Millions and millions of people have purchased his books.

His California church attracts thousands every Sunday.

He seems to be the go-to guy whenever the establishment, ultra-secular press wants to quote an evangelical leader they like.

I'm talking about Rick Warren, author of "The Purpose Driven Life" and the pastor of the Saddleback Church.

Ever since I first pointed out the way he betrayed the persecuted church and our Jewish brothers and sisters living in captivity in the totalitarian police state of Syria, I have been expecting to get blasted.

Millions and millions of people have purchased his books.

His California church attracts thousands every Sunday.

He seems to be the go-to guy whenever the establishment, ultra-secular press wants to quote an evangelical leader they like.

I'm talking about Rick Warren, author of "The Purpose Driven Life" and the pastor of the Saddleback Church.

Ever since I first pointed out the way he betrayed the persecuted church and our Jewish brothers and sisters living in captivity in the totalitarian police state of Syria, I have been expecting to get blasted.

I thought for sure I would hear from these millions of well-educated, well-informed, biblically astute purpose-driven disciples.

It has been six days. God created the whole universe in that amount of time. And, so far, I haven't heard one cogent argument, apologia or rationalization for Warren's actions by any of his flock.

I'm told he's got one of the best PR machines money can buy. He sure is not getting his money's worth.

On the other hand, I can tell you hundreds of thousands of people are reading my critiques of his misadventures in misguided foreign policy. We can actually count those readers on WND. And they are being spread far and wide in a viral way by e-mailers and bloggers.

Is the strategy now to ignore Farah?

Is the strategy to pretend WND doesn't exist?

Is the strategy to ignore the hard facts presented here about what Rick Warren said and did in Syria and hope the controversy blows over?

I've got news for you. It's not going to blow over. I won't let it.

I demand an apology from Rick Warren – not to me, for heaven's sake, but to Christians in Syria who choose to worship outside the state-approved churches he toured. I demand an apology to the Jews who suffer the humiliating life of dhimmitude in Syria today while Rick Warren tells the world they don't exist.

This is a world I know something about.

It was just about a year ago that my Jerusalem bureau chief, Aaron Klein, was prevented from entering Syria for one reason – he's Jewish!

Funny, I don't remember Rick Warren protesting that action – minor, really, compared to the indignities Jews in Syria live with daily, but well-publicized nonetheless.

Perhaps Rick Warren hasn't seen the Syrian TV show – a big hit in Damascus – that renews the blood libel direct from "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," entertaining millions with a graphic story of a rabbi who slits the throat of a young Christian boy so he can use it to prepare the Passover motzah.

Perhaps Rick Warren hasn't noticed that the Syrian government has published an updated version of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," an anti-Semitic story that claims Jews run the world by proxy.

Perhaps Rick Warren is not aware of hundreds of years of genocidal pogroms that have taken place in Syria at the expense of the Jews.

But of course he must know about all these things, because he says he's an avid reader of my column and an expert on the Middle East because of his membership in the Council on Foreign Relations.

Rick Warren thinks it is commendable that Syria has opened its arms to Christians fleeing Iraq. What he doesn't know or doesn't say is that many of those Christians fleeing Iraq are fleeing bullets and bombs and terrorists that have entered Iraq through Syria. He also doesn't explain President Bashar Assad's penchant for keeping his friends close and his enemies closer.

I'm not going to let this matter slide. Not me. Not this Syrian-Lebanese-American Christian journalist. If Rick Warren thinks dialogue with everyone is so great – let the dialogue begin right here. The persecuted church in Syria can't speak for itself. But I will stand with them in answering Rick Warren's lies about their tormentors.

[Quix]

It's always amazing to observe the degree of flawless X-Ray vision into the hearts of distant brothers that gets displayed so excessively on such threads.

[DarthVader]

"It's always amazing to observe the degree of flawless X-Ray vision into the hearts of distant brothers that gets displayed so excessively on such threads."

It is a sign of presumptuous judgement and gross spiritual immaturity on our part. Just a part of our human or sin nature we have to overcome.

[True-Stu]

Hee hee...who'd a thunk it indeed!

Humbly counting on the Holy Spirit to be my screen door - you know, keepin' the bugs out. There appears to be some follicle vivisectionists that make a sport out of picking everything apart and don't trust that He will give us appropriate discernment. This stuff isn't the accursed "preaching another gospel." It's just minutia.

[Quix]

It is a sign of presumptuous judgement and gross spiritual immaturity on our part. Just a part of our human or sin nature we have to overcome.
= = =

Very well put, imho.

I still think that outrageous shrillness against things that Scripture is somewhat fuzzy or ambiguous on . . . is asking for God to slap one upside the head for arrogant judgmentalism.

And, it seems to PRESUME RATHER HAUGHTILY

that ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

the very clear things have been mastered long ago by the self-righteous rock throwers . . . a presumption I strongly disagree with.

It's usually the very clear things that trip us up the most. But it's soooooo much more convenient and distracting to throw rocks over the fuzzy things!

LOVING GOD WHOLLY and others as ourselves and doing unto others . . .

Those things are pretty clear and clearly leave us with responsibility for growth and right choices that will keep us busy until Jesus comes.

Thanks for your kind words. I assume you do realize, though, that such kind words on a Rick Warren bashing thread are definitely NOT the order of the day; NOT the custom; NOT the habit; NOT the SOP; NOT the expectation . . . etc. etc. etc. and etc. some more.

LOL. sigh.

[Quix]

Humbly counting on the Holy Spirit to be my screen door - you know, keepin' the bugs out. There appears to be some follicle vivisectionists that make a sport out of picking everything apart and don't trust that He will give us appropriate discernment. This stuff isn't the accursed "preaching another gospel." It's just minutia.

= = =

Extremely well put, imho.

[DarthVader]

The Scriptures deride this sort of behavior Psalms 19 poignantly points this out to us.

Psalm 19To the leader. A Psalm of David.
1The heavens are telling the glory of God;
and the firmament* proclaims his handiwork.
2Day to day pours forth speech,
and night to night declares knowledge.
3There is no speech, nor are there words;
their voice is not heard;
4yet their voice* goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.


In the heavens* he has set a tent for the sun,
5which comes out like a bridegroom from his wedding canopy,
and like a strong man runs its course with joy.
6Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
and its circuit to the end of them;
and nothing is hidden from its heat.


7The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the decrees of the Lord are sure,
making wise the simple;
8the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is clear,
enlightening the eyes;
9the fear of the Lord is pure,
enduring for ever;
the ordinances of the Lord are true
and righteous altogether.
10More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey,
and drippings of the honeycomb.


11Moreover by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12But who can detect their errors?
Clear me from hidden faults.
13Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins;*
do not let them have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
and innocent of great transgression.


14Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable to you,

[pby]

"...why did you refer to yourself as formerly a "Calvinist" Nazarene."

To alleviate your confusion, I referred to myself in that manner because I was a member of the COTN and I also held to a "Calvinist" position.

I corrected myself about the "H.".

Phyiscs...Do you know Dr. Giberson at ENC?

Science is not a proper hermeneutic.

True-Stu posted: "I only see your conclusion as unreasonable because you apparently assume that we are using "material" from Warren's group that involves exegisis of scripture-and we are not."

Reply: Well, then, I am confused. I didn't just assume that you were using "material" from Warren's group that involves exegesis of scripture...You stated that you were in your post that prompted my response. You wrote: "We are a Nazarene Church and we are using a lot of the PDL material, for small groups and missions outreach.

Which PDL material are you using for small groups and missions outreach that does not involve exegesis of scripture?

I can't imagine that by saying that you were using a lot of PDL materials that you are using just the class 101, 201, 301, 401 progression of classes. That is not a lot of PDL materials.

Give me your church link...I'll check it out.

Yep...I knew I could count on 1 Corinthians 9 to be quoted. It always is in response to method and message...But read through the book of Acts and let me know in which cities Paul's methods changed.

It didn't change. It was always the same - powerfully proclaiming from, and reasoning via, the Word of God through which Jews and Gentiles, from Cyprus, to Antioch, to Iconium, to Phillipi, to Thessalonica, to Berea, to Athens , to Corinth, to Ephesus, to Jerusalem and to Rome, heard that they were sinners and that through Jesus (His death and resurrection) was the forgiveness of their sins.

Please quote Acts 17 next...I absolutely love Paul's method/seeker sensitive message there (After getting mad about the presence of so many idols, Paul adresses the crowd with: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. - Acts 17:30-31)!

And you didn't say anything about McLaren or Sweet...Has not your staff had a retreat/seminar with one, or both, of them? Or at least a district event (if not, you are just so not missional!)?

1 Corinthians 9 (incorrectly applied and out of context) is always the basis for the implementation of the PDC/seeker sensitive model: casual dress, contemporary and/or secular music in the worship service, the use of distorting paraphrases, the infamous shaping of the Gospel to meet people's felt needs, and etc.

[pby]

He's not a Rick basher?

He said that Rick was a "lousy preacher", has an unlikeable message delivery, his books contain horrible hermeneutics and that Warren is off the political reservation.

If that is supportive, RW doesn't need any bashers!

[Quix]

Hmmmmm.

Guess I was all mixed up on posts or some such. Sorry.

Agreed.

[ConservativeMind]

You will find out more about the what Rick endorses in the way of smearing those who don't agree with him from the referenced article from the Wall Street Journal in this thread:

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-religion/1695959/posts

I was relatively indifferent to him before that article--not terrible, not great. Now, I can't stand what he stands for.

[ConservativeMind]

So, Christ was following all the Seven Noahide Laws. Why did the Jewish people of that time have Him killed?

[outinyellowdogcountry]

And you would know that instinctively. Good for you. I guess that is all you need.

[Quix]

BTW,

I don't know if it's true for JWarren or not. But many folks of his experience and 'status' follow Kenneth Hagin's policy . . . and even encourage their followers to do the same

to refuse to defend him . . . trusting God alone to do so in His way and time as He may or may not see fit.

[TommyDale]

This isn't as much about Warren as a person, but Warren as a false teacher -- using such sources as Carl Jung and the like.
We are required to point out error.

[True-Stu]

Yes, I'd say we were using a lot in the sense that we are using the PDC framework. Yep, that would be the 101, 201, 301, 401 progression of classes. The framework we are using for missions is only the PDC concept that missions are not just for the "professional missionary." Their focus is that we all should be invovled to the extent that we are able and the place to do that and get excited about it is at the small group level. In our small groups we develop our own ideas of mission outreach and the ways in which we will share the gospel message. Like I said, no exegesis comes from RW's group.

Hmmm..McLaren and Sweet? I haven't sat at their feet and I have never heard them mentioned by our church staff.

We have a cognitive dissconnect going on here. Let me try to make this yet more clear. "Method" involves such mundane things as the "where" and the "how," but not really the "what." The "what" never changed with Paul (at least the essential gospel message never changed). We do have to acknowledge that all of his letters, excepting only his letters to the Romans, were written to churches that he had already visited and in which he new individuals personally. The non-essential gospel message (and that whole concept requires its own exegesis) therefore addressed the problems and needs of the particular church he was writing too. Obviously his letter to the Corinthians differs from his letter to the church in Ephesus and differs yet again from the letters he wrote to his young protege Timothy. But I digress. Let's just agree that Paul's "message," the "what," never changed.

But did his method, the "where" and "how" change. Let's take a short look at Acts and particulary Acts 17, which you have so graciously provided as a reference text. Paul usually preached in the synogogue of the city he was visiting. That is what he did in Antioch (ch. 13), Iconium (ch. 14) Thessalonica (ch. 17) and Corinth(ch. 18), to name a few. Look at the Paul's approach in Antioch. He was preaching to Jews here, so he established his credibility with them by reciting much of the history of the Jews and the prophesies before sharing with them the message of Jesus being the fulfillment of those prophesies. The "where" was the synogogue and the "how" was an appeal to thier history and prophesies.

Now lets shoot over to Acts ch. 17 and the Areopagus or "Mars Hill" speech. The "Where?" well, it's not in a synogogue this time. It's out on a hill where the gentile philosophers would share something new to the delight of the Athenians and strangers visiting there. It was an ancient example of the modern day bohemian coffee house. Paul went to thier place and relished the opportunity to speak to them. How about the "how?" Hmmmm....no mention of Jewish history or prophesies in the Torah. Instead, he picked up on thier local schtick, you know, that sign on the altar that said "to an unknown God" and he went with it. It must have been a beautiful thing - he was on a role.

So here we have Paul gearing the delivery to the specific audience. The "where" and the "how" are masterfully utilized to have the optimum effect on his audience so that he "may by all means save some." That is what 1Cor.9: 19-23 means to me my friend. The Gospel message is the same, but the method changes so that he can capture their interest, engage thier mind and then let the gospel and the Holy Spirit stir their soul.

[Sue Perkick]

Absolutely. I've long said that just as L Ron Hubbard created a religion--(scientology)--had Jung created a religion it would have been PDL.

[Sue Perkick]

It really is frustrating how many refuse to see this. Sad. Because it doesn't have to be this way. It was never meant to be this way. So much heartache has come from this.

[Quix]

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!

Must be a new level of satire . . .

Call a brother believer all manner of evil characterizations . . . and then . . .

but it's not about him as a person???

I think in a worst case construction on reality . . . I'm reminded of a couple of uncles twice removed . . .

They were hard up in the northern mountain states and winter was coming before long. They needed some money to get back to the Southwest.

So, being reared in such things . . . they held a camp/meeting revival. One of them was more gifted speaking and one musically.

A number of people were saved in the sham revival. Neither uncle was right with God at the time. But they preached and sang convincingly and folks were saved. A true case of His Word not returning void.

I think in later years, one of them ran into someone saved in that sham revival and the bloke and his family were still living for God.

I don't believe Rick comes close to being as bad as he's made out to be. I don't know how to explain a lot of things and I'm not happy with a number of his recent actions and statements. But I'm not his boss. AS far as I know, he's still a believer in Christ's coming in the flesh and all the basic doctrines of the faith.

I'm quite willing to spit out the bones and give him the benefit of the doubt and let Jesus sort it all out.

[Quix]

Good wisdom.

Thx.

[Quix]

Hogwash.

Vicktor Frankel, perhaps. Carl Jung was much further afield and awash in all manner of nonsense.

Doesn't mean everything Carl Jung ever thought or wrote or said was utter evil or idiocy. Even satanic mathematicians can add 2 + 2.