Vanity: FReeper TechnoGeeks-Computer Advice Needed!

We're looking to considerably expand our home network and I've been toying with the idea of a "thin client" setup, not only for the sake of expense but also for ease of upkeep and administrative supervision.

I've spent many hours in the last several weeks reading about how to build a server for small business/educational settings, and I'm starting to get information overload. One article will seem terrifically informative -- but written 5 years ago. Another will have some great cutting edge ideas, but little of the "how to" specifics I need. My kids are more ready than I am to get this project from the "theoretical" to the "practical" stage, so that's why I'm coming straight to the experts. Thus, here's my query to you geniuses who are familiar with such things:

Would you help me design a system to use in our home for work, internet, education (we homeschool, so this is a big part), and multiplayer LAN gaming? Your professional advice would be most appreciated.

(1) Right now we have a desktop and a laptop both running Windows XP, networked through a Linksys router/gateway (desktop is wired, laptop is wireless) with broadband. The laptop is my husband's and I'd pretty much leave that as is. The desktop is one we built four or five years ago using an AMD Athlon 1700XP processor (1.4 GHz) and an Epox 8K3A+ motherboard w/ 80GB hard drive, 768MB DDR, 350w PSU, a Radeon 9600 graphics card, and the usual CD/DVD peripherals. Can we use this old system we have to build a decent server to host all our programs and applications? Any suggestions on better components or additional components to morph this unit into a server? (e.g., Would a dual-socket mb be preferable considering the multitude of tasks five or six users may be asking for at once?)

(2)As I say, I'm leaning toward thin-client network rather than a bunch of $800 loaded-to-the-gills workstations. Considering that I've also had to wipe clean and reinstall XP at least a half-dozen times this year alone, I'm also favoring Linux as the OS. Using Wine or CrossOver we could use the majority of games we already have. And before we obtained MS Office, we got along fine for years with OpenOffice Suite, so I'm quite familiar with those programs. So what OS, in your experience, would provide a stable platform for, say, a 6-client network? I've been looking at Debian-based Ubuntu and Edubuntu, SUSE, Mandrake/Mandriva, and Fedora. Like the Mac vs. PC debates, each has its own diehard fans. So what about your Unix comments, preferred distros, miscellaneous brickbats?

(3) I want the boys to each have their own unit so they can simultaneously be working on research, writing a paper, practicing typing, doing math drills, making PhotoShop spoofs, surfing the internet, or playing a game. Two have expressed an interest in laptops -- since I'm hoping this can be a server-client based network, can I get some old laptops on eBay for dirt-cheap that would work in this type of setup, or are we better off with desktop units? From what I've read, the thin-client machines are practically irrelevant; it's the server's capabilities that are important (i.e., the necessary processing power and system memory for running the various programs). Would the video cards and processors of old laptops have the ability to let the boys play games like Half-Life 2 or the Battlefield series in an LAN, if the programs themselves were run from the server? I'm not too worried about the math or typing or other interactive educational software, as it's not as graphic-intensive as their games are.

(4) Would a server/thin-client setup be adequate for tasks such as burning a CD or DVD, watching streaming files such as HotAir or YouTube videos on the internet, playing multiplayer games, etc., or would it be best to have one dedicated computer for these kinds of CPU-hogs?

Thanks for your input. The sooner we can get this thing up and running, the happier my children will be. I wouldn't mind having my own FReep Machine, either. (15-year-old wants to use this to help him earn his Boy Scout computing merit badge, as well. So the more specific you can be as to hardware, software and system needs, the better we'll both be able to utilize your suggestions. We're not exactly computer noobs, but neither are we IT savvy! So thanks for your patience.)

My guess is that you're going to find a single-proc AMD at 1.4 GHz a little weak for a server supporting six nodes in a thin-client configuration, especially if you're serving up games. That would be true no matter what OS it's running. Max it out on memory and you might stand a chance but not otherwise.

The big difference in sizing a server for this is that what you've described can't be tuned for any of the major server roles - file services, application services, print or comms or web services - without degrading the other roles. And tune it you'll have to if you expect to wring performance out of that platform.

Were I doing it I'd (1) purchase another hard drive and use hardware mirroring for redundancy, pack as much RAM as you can in the box, and purchase relatively beefy workstations. Workstations have gotten cheaper much faster than laptops and you could get two pretty good units for the price of a single laptop. Each kid with his own machine is a much happier scenario IMHO.

This isn't really thin-client at all but I think it might be the best cost/performance mix right now. Your mileage may vary.

(Oh, and you've probably done it by now but if you haven't, for pity's sake secure your router or you'll be sharing your broadband with the world. ;-) )

This isn't really thin-client at all but I think it might be the best cost/performance mix right now.

Thank you. That's exactly the kind of criticism I'm looking for. Bottom line is bang-for-the-buck. If a couple of beefy individual systems will get us what we need for LESS than the other setup would require, then I'm all for that.

(Oh, and you've probably done it by now but if you haven't, for pity's sake secure your router or you'll be sharing your broadband with the world. ;-) )

Found that advice on FR a couple of years ago. Made all the suggested changes and then some to secure the router, so I reckon we're safe enough from amateurs.

You are looking at quite a project if you are looking to run the programs both from and on the server, providing a true thin client environment.

I wouldn't get rid of your Windows licenses. If you go ahead with the Linux thin client or a Linux network, leave Windows on as a dual-boot option. There will be plenty of things that won't run on Linux no matter have well you tweak WINE.

If you were dishing out the equivalent of the old terminal screens of Unix days, your server would be powerful enough to run over a hundred terminals, easily. However, we are not in those days anymore. I would encourage you to consider Linux on each computer (the free OS way) and forget the terminal serving aspect. Put a minimal size version of Linux on the systems (or even use Knoppix on a CD if needed) and make it a normal Linux network.

The simplest way is to use Windows on each system. I would encourage this as the most effective setup, but if you are looking at having fun and don't mind dozens of hours of setup, just leave Windows on as a dual-boot and do the rest as stated.

Enjoy!

About bang for the buck, you can easily put together some new, cheap systems for under $350 each with Linux. As long as your main hard drive in the system you designate as your server holds enough, you will be absolutely fine on speed as well as assuring Linux programs will work well and display on each system okay.

(1) purchase another hard drive and use hardware mirroring for redundancy, pack as much RAM as you can in the box,

For heaven's sake, if you do that, then replace the power supply on that old box. A two year old, 350 watt, no-name power supply will probably start acting flakey if you add on to its load like that, delivering unreliable power and causing random, inscrutable, undiagnosable problems.

I'd tend to agree with other posters above, and stay away from the thin client stuff. Thin clients make sense in larger corporate environments, where the specialized knowledge in setting up and maintaining the centralized parts can be spread out over more hapless end users who don't need much more than documents, web browser and email. Thin clients help a centralized corporate MIS department maintain tight control and uniformity over a large pool of end users.

Best to go with ordinary PC's and laptops, running Windows or Linux, and that old server, for file and print sharing.

As the kids get to be teenagers, the games they will want to run will pretty much require Windows. And to run Quicken and Tax programs, either you will want Windows, or you will have to make do with older versions of Quicken and second choice on the Tax programs. Otherwise, Linux is lower cost and more stable and comes in a wider variety of distributions targeted for various sorts of users and users.

Expect to have an ever changing mix of PC's and laptops running Linux or Windows, as your needs and means evolve.

You can find a reasonable selection of ready made PC's from two of my favorite ventors at:

Looking at some of the Newegg systems on the link in my previous post, I see that they are selling through from some vendors that I would be reluctant to do business with, such as IBuyPower, eMachines, Compaq, and HP.

I have never actually purchased a prebuilt system through Newegg and am not sure how that works. I purchase almost all my computer parts from Newegg, but I usually know exactly what part I want before I even get to the Newegg web page.

Monarch Computer has long been my favorite site for pre-built systems, though I have not had the pleasure of purchasing from them in the last year, and I note with some concern that their once vaunted rating on ResellerRatings.com has slipped dramatically, from the high 9.xx's, down to 5.09. I worry that something went bad with them, but I don't know.

Well, for what it's worth from one 22 years in the computer biz (I hasten to add, mainly in sales/marketing.....but decent with computers despite that...)......I currently have 5 systems on a home network, only one 'hard wired' to the router. Wireless networks are JUST fine, tyvm.....and we all run Windows XP Professional. We all can share each others' resources: DVD drives, hard drives, printers, you name it; easy to set up. I can log onto any system in this house and access any other, and any other key resources (drives, printers, etc.) on any other system in our 'workgroup'. Works just great......and we've been home schooling as well for over 22 years. If you want to discuss the best way to set up such a network, FReepmail me.

Yep, and if you're going to do that you might as well get a dedicated server box with redundant power supplies. Really, there are good reasons not to try to turn a workstation into a production server and that's one of them. I didn't mention upgrading the disk controller but most workstation controllers don't support RAID out of the box. And so it goes, nickel by nickel, until you might just as well have bought a server. And we haven't even addressed the backup issue.

(Along those lines I'm testing a half-terabyte USB external at the moment - the vendor swears they're not as flaky as they used to be. $250. It is fast. I don't know if it's reliable enough for business but I may just go out and buy one for me.)

I wouldn't use a sever based system here because playing games will demand power on the local machine, more than a server use for this size of net work. I do use a older work station for shared storage ( 3 x 100 gb drives ) and printers. You can also get network storage units now than you connect to the router for good prices, mine was 79.00 plus drives. These are great for backups. The only reason I can see for a server based system is it would be easier to control and monitor the use of the system on the network. When and what each workstation or person can do on the network.

For a single server for home use, I doubt one needs redundant power supplies. A reliable brand, such as Enermax, P C Power & Cooling, Thermaltake or Antec of adequate power rating is good enough. One does not need 99.99 % uptime, and with the extra PC's in the house, one is not completely off the air if your server goes down.

For backup, I'd recommend USB external drives. Have at least three of them, and rotate them every week or three. Then even if one goes out once a year, it won't cost you too much lost data. Keep the ones not in use a fair distance from the computer, so that thieves, fires and other natural disasters that get to one don't get to the other.

The price and size of removable harddrives such as this has gotten too competitive to bother dealing with any of the other classic forms of backup, such as tape drives, for all but the most serious uses.

Well, that's the point in avoiding true thin client - when the server goes down you're done. I've had failures in three of the four power supply brands you recommend - it's not whether, it's when. (Haven't tried a Thermaltake yet. They any good?)

I had terrible luck with the first generation of USB externals and so ceased to recommend them. Even now the Western Digitals don't like to be plugged into strips (an idea I scoffed at until it actually happened to me). The vendor had to twist my arm to even give this one a try. So far pleasantly surprised - it's quieter than its predecessors, too. I may just turn around on this one. It'd sure be nice not to have to deal with tape at home - it's just too expensive.

I did find out the hard way not to plug the USB HD into the USB port on my monitor. Halfway through a 50-GB copy, quittin' time, locked the workstation, and got ready to go home. As always and without thinking, before I left I...turned...off...the...monitor. Did you know you can't turn a switch back on before the electrons notice it's off?

Look, their needs are not mission critical. They can handle having their power supply out for a couple hours until they put a new one in.

There's no need for high performance hard drive schemes, either.

A decent form of backup, preferably an image with incremental image capability (Acronis Drive Image or a similar one that is available free) will be fine.

The other supplier of pre-built PC's that has long had, and still has, an excellent ResellerRatings.com rating is

ECS Envision Computer Systems, with a current rating of 9.90

The two top rated laptop vendors for a long time now have been and continue to be

PowerNotebooks.com, with a perfect 10.00 rating, and
DiscountLaptops.com, with an excellent 9.86 rating.

Their needs aren't mission critical as long as they're not in thin-client. That's one reason I didn't recommend that. We'll have to agree to disagree on what you call "high-performance hard drive schemes," though. Mirroring isn't actually any such thing - even with RAID1 you take a bit of a performance hit. It's for redundancy, not performance, and yes, I do mirror my drives at home, and yes, it has saved me.

As for backup, I'm glad you like Acronis and I may give it a try based on that recommendation. What it backs up to is another issue. I'm through with tape - it's expensive and it hasn't kept up with the drives it's supposed to be backing up. Optical media don't have the capacity. I'm in the position of returning to the USB hard drives I used to disdain. Live and learn...

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