Dallas Resident Dies After Eating Raw Oysters

NBC5i ^ | 9-29-06 | AP

[capt. norm]

I wish I could make this a link so it would be easier for you but sadly, I can't. Go to www.visusldx.com/vibrio/vibriolnfo.jsp That should take you to the Dept. of Health and Human Services. The Center For Disease Control and Prevention. There you can read for ("R-months").

As you may remember, our discussion was about the reason for the old "R-month" thing about oysters that dates back to the 1930's and your "evidence" for this is something that the government health services put out during the 1980's....you are seriously out of synch. time-wise.

Your major point was that water temps were the culprit and mine was that run-off contamination was the bad guy.

In reality, almost all of the closures (to shell-fishing) in area waters were caused by flooding, run-offs (from heavy rains) and the associated decrease in salinity (big factor) and they happened during periods of cooler water temperautres (60's as opposed to 80's).

Please answer this simple question: If water temperatures being too high is the problem, then what is the temperature that is considered to be "too high" that you talk about?

Please don't try to divert the subject (too warm waters = cause of bacterial blooms, yes or no) with trivia that evades the point.

My original point was that the old "R-month" thing about oysters was based on lack of decent refrigeration on the boats harvesting oysters in the pre-60's and yours seems to be that the "R-month" ban in the 1940's and 1950's was, instead, based on a government report from the 1980's.....WOW..how did those fortune-tellers pull that one off?

[Ditter]

Being an oyster salesman you would know more about run off contamination and when it occurred but the rest of your argument is seriously out of whack. You seem to be talking about of both sides of your mouth about this thing. I have heard about run off contamination but it never had anything to do with v.v. I seem to remember that the notice about v.v. that we received when we had the house on Galveston Bay that I spoke of here, was during a very hot summer when we had had no rain. This conversation has been very pointless for quite a while and I say we give it up. I will continue to avoid oysters in hot months and you can continue to sell them all year round.

[capt. norm]

Being an oyster salesman you would know more about run off contamination and when it occurred

Please don't resort to liberal tactics (when facts don't go your way, resort to demonizing, labeling, etc.).

I have never sold an oyster in my life....I have bought a good many of them though and they were delicious.

My original post centered on the following:

" My response was totally about the myth of "month with an 'R' in it" question and absolutely nothing else, so anything else you try to build upon that = "straw men".

You were the one that proclaimed water temps that were too high as the reason for the old "R month" myth and it is simply not true.

My posts had nothing to do with whatever killed the guy in Dallas because I have no knowledge of it except from what I have read. My response to you centered around your proclamation that the "R-month" thing was all about water temperature and I tried to illustrate to you that this was not the case at all and history backs me up.

I don't want to play the old game where you change the argument in the middle of the game when the old one crashes."

(copied and pasted from the earlier post)

You have never directly responded to what I said about water temperatures as the reason for the old "R-month" oyster myth, but have muddied the water with the v.v. bacteria thing....like they knew all about that back in the 40's (fortune tellers?) and that was the reason for the summertime ban...yeah...right...

I simply stated that the air temperature experienced by the oystermen who had no refrigeration available on their boats (and ice was too expensive back then) prevented them from coming in with live/edible oysters.

You stated outright:

"They come from too warm water, norm, just like the old saying about the 'r' months."

Your own words...blaming water temperature and that is what I took issue with.

Now you try to dance around (and away) from that but never directly addressing the water temp aspect.

Is it now your position that the old "R-month" ban was due to future research (40 some years in the future) about v.v bacteria OR the fact that an oyster harvester was unable to return to the dock with live oysters when the AIR temperature was too hot. (The oysters were just fine in that "too warm" water until they were removed from it kept for on the boats for several hours in the much warmer AIR and DIED).

Please try and stay on the subject and stop side-tracking with trivia.

I was talking about the reason for the ban in the first place... period. How difficult can it be to remember that?

You can do a "John Kerry" and nuance it to death but that was my subject.

[Ditter]

norm norm.... to many back and forth points from you for me to keep up with. I said warm water v.v. was not a "myth" from the 40 & 50 and backed it up with a Health Dept document (you said was from the 80's). Whenever the Heath Dep. doc. was written it backed up what the my "myth" said. You have not backed up your argument with anything other than more arguments. You said lack of refrigeration was the problem not v.v. According to both my doc. and the article posted here v.v. is a problem with oysters in the summer but does not make them appear rotten or smelley like lack of refrigeration would do. As far as people not knowing about v.v. back in the 40's maybe they didn't have a name for it but they knew otherwise fresh appearing oysters gathered in the warm months would occasionally kill people. Another tip for you, don't eat a boiled crawfish with a straight tail.

[eastforker]

The old wives tale was that you should never eat shellfish in months with an R in the name...........That should read without an R as the summer months warmer water helps sustain bacteria. Same with saving rain water in a cistern.

[capt. norm]

Your beloved v.v had virtually nothing to do with my posts.

Try as you may to bury it, I was citing the reason for the closed season ("R-months") from the horse(s) mouths and you're claiming that your precious v.v bacteria brought it about.

I ask the question again....if too warm water is the cause, why aren't we all dead from eating them right now.

The v.v bacteria needs a lot more than heat. It needs a source...and the known sources are land-based.

Galveston Bay is still in recovery from the horrendous pollution of years gone by. The last time (and it will remain the last time) I ate an oyster from there was in the 60's at my mother-in-law's house in Conroe and that's all we could get at that time. I'd rather do without than eat another oyster from there, so I see where you're coming from.

I still state that the reason for the old ban was lack of refrigeration coupled with the fact that the oyster harvesters didn't even bother with them during times that they knew they would end up with a dead, unsellable catch at the end of the day.

We are in our second "R" month right now and the water temperature has just started to come down (84 degrees from the high of 87) and it has been 30-some days and the oysters are just fine, so what does that say about the "R-month" warm water connection?

Pick up a bag of oysters today and let them sit without refrigeration for a few hours and you end up with "garbage on the half-shell". Same as it was in the days before refrigeration.

The argument not only stands up, it is very easy to replicate, even today. How difficult is that to understand?

[Rte66]

I know what it is, but can't say as I've ever eaten it. Does seem like a waste of very good fried oysters. But I do like the taste of bacon with oysters - just don't need all those eggs.

Have you had "Angels on Horseback"? Yummy. One of the restaurants here has oysters en brochette that are similar. You can do angels on the half shell or on a skewer or each with a toothpick in it - however you can get the bacon cuddled up next to the oyster when it crisps.

The best way, to me, is when they also make a sauce and you can slip your bacon-wrapped oysters off their sticks or out of their half-shells and put them on toast points spread with anchovy paste (just a tiny smidge), parsley and butter - then a little garlic-wine sauce over.

Oh, oysters in a sauce reminds me of one time in OKC when I was talking with a new PR client by phone and out of the clear blue sky he asked me if, being from Houston previously, I knew a certain oyster recipe that was very obscure (made at one defunct restaurant a jillion years before that). I did! And I couldn't believe he asked me, because it was one of my favorites, too.

It's called Oysters Ernie - and all it really is, is fried oysters in a sauce that's mostly made of A-1 Sauce, Worcestershire and lemon juice - they're cooked in the sauce to where they get really soft. Way too rich for anyone! I even happened to have the old cookbooklet with the recipe in it and gave it to him over the phone - got the account, of course. He was astounded, as he'd tried to get it for many years with no luck.

The best oyster dish I ever made I only made once to perfection and have never been able to duplicate the first one. Hate when that happens! I just put a mess of oysters in a small casserole dish, sprinkled Worcestershire sauce over them, then some chopped scallions (green onions), then some dollops of sour cream, then a generous amount of saltine cracker crumbs-not even crushed up very fine, just hand-crumbled.

Two more layers just like that, then baked at 350° until bubbly. Mama mia! Delectable. But never to come out so perfect ever again, no matter how hard I've tried.

I love oyster-rice dressing with lots of parsley; an oyster-corn casserole my dad used to make; several others I can't think of right offhand. Mmmmmighty fine little slimy suckers!

[Ditter]

I did a search and came up with 31,000 links to v.v. info. Here is the first one I randomly selected.

Go to:www.safeoysters.org It says:"the v.v. bacteria prefer warm water and warm environments and reproduces rapidly when water temps are 86F to 95F......... In the US the highest sea water concentrations of the v.v.bacteria are found in the Gulf of Mexico from April to October." Notice that is quite a bit longer than the 'r' month rule and it (April/Oct) is the schedule I have always followed. v.v. has nothing to do with pollution and is a naturally occurring bacteria.

I can't imagine there are any 'legal' oyster beds in Galveston Bay and the fish in the northern part of Galveston Bay and Trinity Bay should not be eaten. As of 5 years ago when we sold our house, West Bay was OK for fish.

[PJ-Comix]

There was some wisdom and common sense in the Kosher dietary laws.

So make sure all your oysters are Kosher.

[PJ-Comix]

I LOVE raw oysters. Hey, I've eaten raw eggs from sea urchins I brought to the surface and opened with my knife so no problem at all with raw oysters. I love ALL shellfish. Raw and cooked.

[Dog Gone]

You and I would not be a good date, especially since we're not homos.