Replies

LB wrote: Duke's minimums are way way above the NCAA minimums and always have been and have always had to be.

This asserton requires data. I gave you one example for UF. I have NEVER heard of Duke not accepting someone who immediately enrolled in another four year D1A NCAA institution. Enrollment in such an institution shows they met the NCAA minimum. I can give you several other examples of people who signed with UF, were not admitted or recruits who wanted to go to UF but were not even allowed to visit but who enrolled in other NCAA institutions showing they met the minimum requirements.

LB wrote: To do anything less would result in a 0% graduation rate. For example, if Pressler had been a screw-your-studies-you're-here-to-play-ball kind of coach there's no way the lax players would have 100% graduation.

Of course it would not have led to a zero graduation rate. Athletics departments set up study halls, tutoring etc to help along their athletes who are not up to the schools standards, but who are interested in graduation or at least staying eligible. But I did say in my prior post that revenue sports are different than nonrevenue sports. So I would not expect Duke NOR ANYONE ELSE to admit as many marginal students in lacrosse as they might in basketball or football.

JSL wrote:UF may be harder for an athlete to get into than Duke. But UF is very hard for undergrads to get into these day, someplace in the UNC range, harder than NCSU but probably not quite Duke admission.

LB wrote: The fact that you could even make this comparison says you don't know what you're talking about. There are a ton of players that go to large state schools that Duke cannot even begin to consider for the simple reason that there are no crip majors in which to hide the jocks.

Clearly I am a sports fan. Clearly I am an academic. [I believe maybe you are an engineer who was and academic at some point.] Clearly I know chapter an verse about players signing and qualifying at UF. I do not know the Duke case as well. As I have told you UF does not admit and sometimes does not even let visit players who sign with other D1A NCAA institutions that same year. That is because UF has certain academic standards above the NCAA minimum. [I can explain the UF standards if you like. Can you explain how Duke's admission FOR ATHLETES is different than the NCAA minimus?

I have never heard of Duke having such standards. Clearly Duke backs off some players they think will not qualify, but everyone does this. Can you give me a single example of a player Duke signed to a scholarship but did not admit or who was qualified but Duke did not sign? [The former is much much more convincing because we know a school wanted the player if they signed him and we know the player met NCAA minimum requirements if they were immediately able to go elsewhere as a full qualifier.] I am not talking about Duke passing on a player they did not think would qualify, but who surprisingly did and went to another D1A NCAA program, that too happens to everyone.

If you would like to make a better argument, the Duke's, Vandy's etc of the NCAA world may be at a slight disadvantage because there are fewer majors and maybe no really easy majors like PE etc. Private schools tend to be more arts and sciences oriented and that limits the number of "jock" majors. This has to do with keeping a player eligible, but not in getting them admitted. And of course there are always majors like sociology or other PC majors at private schools that may cater to minority athletes.

In two separate instances I have been a long term insider at both a state school (14 years as a faculty member at a flagship state land grant - NCSU) and a small highly selective private school (9 years undergrad/grad at Duke including a very good friend who let me know what was going on the the admissions office). I've also compared notes many times with faculty at other schools. I'm in a very good position to compare the academic/athletic culture of both. You admit you are not.

You gave me one example of athletic admissions. Big deal. I'll give you a whole book. If you have the time go read "Admissions Confidential". It's a year in the life "expose' " of an admissions officer at Duke. Duke does its admissions "blind". That means the admissions officers don't know anything but the academic record of the applicant (financial status, legacy, athletic information, ethnicity is omitted). Admit/deny is done on that basis alone. For a very small number of applicants, e.g. athletes, there is a "second look" where the coach has to make a case to the admissions office that the athlete can do the work. The admissions officers fight like hell to keep those applicants out. The writer of the book hated the fact that they even had to do "second looks".

For the general student population, you can't compare difficulty of admission at a highly competitive small private school (DU = 6,200 students) that recruits the cream of the crop nationwide with a state school (UF = 49,000?) that also recruits the cream of the crop but mostly statewide. If you know UF so well tell me how many UF students come there from out of state and pay the out-of-state tuition? I'll bet it's less than 10%.

Once a Duke-type school gets those highly qualified students admitted, since they are so uniformly well prepared, they are able to push the hell out of them and the academic environment is very very competitive if not to say cut-throat. I know. I lived it.

And that's true for every major whether it's Engineering, Biology or English. There are no "kick back and relax" majors nor are there any "kick back and relax courses". Everything's hard. Since I've been associated with Duke they've, for example, eliminated the undergraduate Nursing School and the undergraduate Management Science major as not being rigorous enough. The vast majority of students graduate in 4 years. (At those prices who wants to pay even one more semester of tuition!)

If you take an unprepared or unqualified athlete and throw them in that mix they die no matter what help you give them. The fact that the Duke athletes don't die in that environment, and in fact almost all succeed, is testimony to admissions doing their job and then the university does its job by following up on them including the study halls, etc. that you mention.

Private schools tend to be more arts and sciences oriented and that limits the number of "jock" majors. This has to do with keeping a player eligible, but not in getting them admitted.

Actually, it has plenty to do with it. At least at Duke it does. I can't believe you think they are separate issues. I hope it's not a separte issue at UF. No admissions department worth its salt should admit a student, athlete or not, that they know can't do the work. Admissions and eligibility are part and parcel of the same thing. At Duke there's no place for the athletic department to hide the "underperformers" and so they are not admitted in the first place (see above).

You admit "I do not know the Duke case as well." Well I do. I'll take your word about UF if you'll take my word about Duke.

Look, this has degenerated into a pissing match about Duke vs. UF. Both are fine academic institutions with, naturally enough, different charters. I'm glad to learn that UF is taking its charter seriously. Duke is as well. I wish more schools would do the same. The main part of the charter is to admit students who are up to university level work and then follow up to make sure they succeed in their academic work and receive a fine education. That includes athletes. That both schools do so should be a source of pride to both of us.