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To: BlueStateDepression
Actually, the Federal Government controls anything having to do with the levees. While locals have a great bit of say about the levees, they can't actually do anything that actually physically impacts the levee system without approval of the Army Corps of Engineers who are charged by federal government to oversee the construction and upkeep of the system. While the locals are pretty corrupt and seeminly incompetent, ultimately they are not fully in charge. Try getting a permit to work on an area controlled by the Army Corps. It is a major headache and quite expensive if wetlands or navigable waterways is involved.

Think of part of the money as a warranty payment.

Yes some refineries were offline for a short period of time but there was no interuption in overall supply. Care to say that isn't a fact? I would love to see you post something to the effect that supply itself was deminished. Cuz it wasn't for a whole host of reasons that inclue aid by other nations and reserve supplies here at home that were accessed. You know it and I know it so concede that point please.

Three days after Katrina the gas station at my local HEB grocery store was out of gas. It was less than 24 hours, but it had never happened before.

Explain to me how hundreds of gas stations across the country ran out of gas for a short period of time.

Explain why the prices shot up over 50% in some areas. I'lll bet you'll say it was a conspiracy among just about every distributor in the US. In case you didn't take an economics course rising price are in response to demand on a commodity. If there is less "available" the prices rise. Basic economics 101.

The importing issue is a true canard. We imported because stockpiles were becoming depleted. And we paid a dearer price for those imports also.

At least one Strategic Petroleum Reserve location was knocked off line for nearly a month after Rita. The one in Hackberry, LA an area of the state that is still limiting access to anyone other than home or business owners and authorities. This is a low level but undeniable threat to national security.

Supply is dependent upon many factors including quantity, but distribution is also a factor. Most of the refineries did not recieve major damage from the storm. But lack of electricity and lack of employees available made for very difficult distribution. The storm not only affected supply but because of difficulty in distribution it also affected availability which was a worse issue.

The national economy was affected by several months of significantly higher gas prices. The fact that our economy is strong enought to weather this issues is a tribute to its vitality. While it didn't in anyway shape or form cripple the economy it did blunt growth and employment.

Denigrate? I put it bluntl;y that folks got trapped in a place they were TOLD TO LEAVE FROM and you call that denigration? I point out that they made their OWN choice and now want to blame someone else and you call that denigration?

President Bush had to call both Govenor MeeMaw and Mayor Nagin and beg them to both declare a state of emergency and to order an evacuation of NOLA. The evacuation order came about 36 hours before the hurricane hit. The evacuaton plan for the city (even if it had been followed by the mayor) called for 72 hours to evacuate the city. Roughly half the time it would take.

It took nearly eight hours to get Baton Rouge from New Orleans before the storm hit. Baton Rouge is usually about 45 minutes from NOLA. The traffic jams prvented many from leaving. Most gas stations ran dry because of the demand and many people running low on gas simply had to go home or try and find alternative transportation.

Get a map. Notice that you can't go south. Notice you can't go east. Notice that directly north is a very narrow bridge that is some twenty something miles long and one single breakdown or a car running out of gas makes the bridge a death trap. There are limited breakdown areas on the Ponchatrain Bridge. That leaves I-10 as the only practical way out and it became instantly jammed.

Many people did actually try to walk out of the city. There really isn't any place to go that would get you out of the storm's path on foot, but that didn' matter because when they got to the bridge leading into Gretna, the sheriff's department denied them access to the bridge. At gunpoint. In the pooring rain. Ask Shep Smith about that one. It was reported as an act to deter looting.

The airport was shut down due to the wind and rain of the storm, but the airlines kept going as long as they could.

The facts are that while many people escaped the hurricane, many couldn't or wouldn't. Even though the emergency plan called for the use of city and school buses to be used to evacuate those who were unable to do so themselves they were not used.

It is true that many chose to stay behind out of lack or respect for Mother Nature or to protect their property from looters. We all saw that that was a legitimate issue. I don't have much sympathy for anyone on the Gulf Coast who stays behind when a Class Five hurricane is heading your way. That it was a high 3 when it hit was an act of providence.

To say that everyone was there by choice denigrates those who couldn't get out.

Denigration: To attack the character or reputation of; speak ill of; defame.

Maybe you will remember these highlights:

Did any of those that remained when the storm got there make ATTEMPTS to get out of there as they were warned to do? Exactly how do you call them victims? What is it you mean to push when you claim they are victims but people that experience blizzards are not? Both sets of folks know what is possible and one set does something about it and prepares for it while the other set sits on their butts and demands that others do things FOR them.

Or

If people had LISTENED to the warnings to get out of NOLA there wouldnot have been so many dead.....and OH YEAH i thought it was going to be TEN thousand!. I didn't see people walking out of NOLA and that means they didn't REALLY think they needed to leave

I'm sure that the people of NOLA who were trapped by circumstances or the actions or inactions of local government appreciate your feelings over the situation.

Or how about this bit:

That is the REAL victimization sir, the culture of do it FOR me cuz I cannot do it myself! NOLA exposed something all right, too bad some refuse to admit what it actually DID expose.....and it sure wasn't victims of any water related issue.

New Orleans is an old city that has known about hurricanes for it's entire history. To imply that they are stupid or culturally insufficient to take care of themselves is boderline racist. Please note I am not calling you a racist. I am merely pointing out your ignorant conclusions. Most people simply couldn't get out.

When the real damage occured in NOLA, it was after the storm had passed. The levees gave way the next day. The feeling in NOLA was that they had leaned on their deal with the devil and had once again dodged the bullet. Indeed, many people were already on their way back into town. The break in the levees took most inside the town by complete surprise. If you were in the lower 9th it was already too late to get out.

You have denigrated many of the people of NOLA by your implication that what happened to them was their own fault for not leaving. I have demonstrated to you that for most residents of the local parishes this is simply not true. While there are an unfortunately sizable number to whom this applies, you made no disctinction and painted them all with the same brush.

I really don't think you understand how hurricane tracking works. While they are slow moving, landfall cannot be done with pinpoint precision until within about 24 hours of landfall. Even this can be inaccurate. Katrina actually made landfall about 60 miles east of where it had been predicted just 8-12 hours earlier. While 60 miles may not seem like much, that distance is responsible for the majority of damage in New Orleans being water related as opposed to wind damage. If it had moved an even further 60 miles east we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I have refuted every issue you have brought up and I no longer intend to reply to your posts on this subject. I have already avoided finishing my spreadsheets for too long

127 posted on 12/14/2005 4:08:07 PM PST by Comstock1 (I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum, and I'm all outta bubble gum!)
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To: Comstock1
While locals have a great bit of say about the levees, they can't actually do anything that actually physically impacts the levee system without approval of the Army Corps of Engineers who are charged by federal government to oversee the construction and upkeep of the system.

So will you now claim that monies allocated by the federal government FOR one purpose (levees) were applied to those levees by the local officials when they got those monies? You might want to check on that eh?


You talk about a gas station close to you being out of gasoline. You know what, not one station was ever out of gasoline for even one second anywhere near me. That statement holds true for the overwhelming super majority of this nation. You seem to think that local issues mirror national ones. Take a look at how the prices here spiked, while NO overall supply was lessened. Shipping was interupted but that is far different than an issue of overall supply that would spike prices as it did. Sir, that supply problem just didn't exist. Nor does it exist today.

Explain to me how hundreds of gas stations across the country ran out of gas for a short period of time.

Lets have a list there partner. Across the country that did not happen. Lets have a source for that claim and lets have a list of these states where this happened. This is an example of an unsupported claim. This simply did not happen across the country as you just said.

Oil price in the market is determined by speculation. There was a speculation of shortages ( not an actual one when other sources were tapped) The price went up due to that speculation and not to due to actual facts. This is exhibited best by combining your statement that some rigs remain offline with the price of gasoline today. Is it 3 bucks today? NOPE! Why is that if there is this shortage in supply? Guess what, you just lost on that point and gas price today shows you that. Accept that for what it is. There was no overall supply shortage. There was an acute distribution problem, not an overall supply problem.

Tell me sir, how are oil prices determined? Simple supply and demand? Basic economics 101? If you believe that I have some ocean front property here in illinois to sell you!

Now you are coming around in this post. Distribution was a problem, that isn't a supply problem. As you say it is other issues like electricity and evacuation. Some local problems with distribution in your area does not equate to a supply problem in my area, that is the point you are trying to make and that dog just doesn't hunt. Exhibited again by the price of gasoline today and in addition the record breaking profits by oil companies in the aftermath of Katrina and Rita..

President Bush had to call both Govenor MeeMaw and Mayor Nagin and beg them to both declare a state of emergency and to order an evacuation of NOLA. The evacuation order came about 36 hours before the hurricane hit. The evacuaton plan for the city (even if it had been followed by the mayor) called for 72 hours to evacuate the city. Roughly half the time it would take.

Now, why would W have to call and tell blanco and nagin to issue evac orders if the federal government is in control and has authority? You contradict yourself with this statement. While this one is true your previous statement was not. Alot of folks took the news days and days before this because although it was not a mandatory order to leave, they saw the wisdom spouted to them about the coming storm. They made their own choice without being told exactly what to do. They recognized the danger that was afoot and they took action. They prepared. Are you trying to claim that not a word was said in the media about the danger of this storm until nagin and blanco finally ordered an evacuation? Cmon now!

Many people did actually try to walk out of the city.

I would like to see some evidence of that, got any? You try to talk about things that happened AFTER the hurricane and flooding as if it was action taken before hand in attempt to flee the coming storm. That is an instant of spin on your part by removing context. Lets see you show where people tried to walk out on foot prior to the storm or the flood. You cannot do that now can you? But they sure made their way to the superdome, HUH?

The facts are that while many people escaped the hurricane, many couldn't or wouldn't. Even though the emergency plan called for the use of city and school buses to be used to evacuate those who were unable to do so themselves they were not used.

Yes many listened and left. Most of those that didn't, did so by their own choice. The claim that hundreds of thousands "COULDN'T" is simply spin. Wouldn't is the accurate description for the vast majority of those that did not flee. Busses were not used, that is true. That rest in Nagins lap and Blanco's too. It sure doesn;t sit in W's lap.

Everyone able bodied person that stayed to weather the storm made that choice and they hold responsibility for doing so. I saw lots and lots and lots of people that fit that description at the superdome. Didn't you? I saw lots and lots of them on the I-10 overpass also. Even more of them looting stores. Like the cops at wal mart with filled shopping carts! This is not denigration sir, this is simple cold hard truth. Those folks should have been helping those that could not help themselves, like the folks in a nursng home that drowned as water levels reached the ceiling. Obviously my statement doesn't apply to them. Will you say this paragraph is denigration? Oh wait, you already have!

I'm sure that the people of NOLA who were trapped by circumstances or the actions or inactions of local government appreciate your feelings over the situation.

See, even you do it now. You mention blame for everything EXCEPT their own personal respobsibility of their own choices. The circumstances that trapped them were what? Lets explore that a minute. Their own choice is a circumstance. Their denial that this was a serious storm was a circumstance. Their not listening to the warnings being told to them was a circumstance. What other circumstances held them there? What was stopping them from leaving? Are you trying to tell me that because transportation was not brought to their door by the government they were trapped there? Cmon Now! They sure made their way to the superdome didn't they? Imagine that!

It wasn't the actions or inactions of the government that trapped them, it wasn't any other circumstance for the overwhelming super majorty that trapped them there...the two circumstances that kept them there was a culture of 'gimme' and their own choice to ignore the media, and ignore the masses of folks exiting prior to a madatory order to do so. Last time I checked this is a free country, these folks were not trapped by anything more than their own 'do it for me' mentality.

To imply that they are stupid or culturally insufficient to take care of themselves is boderline racist. Please note I am not calling you a racist. I am merely pointing out your ignorant conclusions. Most people simply couldn't get out.

They showed that they couldn't/wouldn't care for themselves sir, What part of that isn't true? They did not have water for their kids in ONE DAY. What they showed more clearly than anything is that they DIDN'T care for themselves. They DIDN'T prepare. How the HELL is that racist? Racist my butt, that is simple historical FACT. When comparing the deaths by % to population by % MORE white folks died than black folks. Overall numbers more black people did die but that fits because more black people than white people exist in the population to begin with there. You can take that racist crap and have lunch with Kanye West. It is bogus to bring that claim, 100% bogus. You cannot support such a claim with anything more than your personal feeling.

Sir, I do not need to imply anything. The facts show through for themselves. The vast majority of folks trapped in NOLA were able bodied and could have left if they had the desire and resolve to do so. The fact is that they just didn't have either. Again, this obviously seperates the able bodied folks from the disabled folks. Are you going to claim now that the majority of people remaining there were disabled? I would love to see you make that claim!!!!

You have denigrated many of the people of NOLA by your implication that what happened to them was their own fault for not leaving. Hogwash. It WAS their own fault! Truth does not denigrate. Pointing out truthful facts is not an attack. It's simply IS You fail to see the difference, don't you. If that hurts, TOUGH. Accept is for what the facts show. Facts show a majority of able bodied folks COULD have left if they had made the choice to do so. They didn't and that is their own fault. How can you claim it is someone else's fault? If you do, you are claiming that they were not allowed to leave without express permission. That is foolishness!

Your last paragraph demonstrates my point quite clearly. These folks took the ' its not gonna happen to me' attitude. After it did happen to them they then switched to ' its someone else's fault ' attitude. "They" didn't come fast enough. "They" didn't act properly. "They" are racist for letting black people set to die. "They" shoulda done more. "They" gotta do it FOR me. You make these same cases in your post.

You can claim to have refuted me all you want to. Thing is you refute with claims that the facts do not support. Ideology does not make the case for you. You must support your claims. Mine are well supported in history as we all watched this play out. You can ignore those facts if you want to. It will just show that you cannot refute what I have said with anything but claims that go unsupported by the reality of how this happened and what has happened as a result.

Where is the personal responsibility for folks that were able bodied? Do you really think that they hold none at all? Your post sure seems to push that agenda as you assign blame all over the place while you never ever mention those folks own personal responsibility. So tell me what responsibility do they hold for their own choices and decisions. What accoutning do you hold them to for their own actions ( or lack of them)?
129 posted on 12/15/2005 8:13:49 AM PST by BlueStateDepression
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To: Comstock1

Was blanco lying when she testified with this statement?

"The Democratic governor told a U.S. House committee investigating the government's response to the hurricane that mandatory evacuations were issued over two days before the hurricane struck so people in the lowest-lying parishes would avoid gridlock that could trap them in the path of the hurricane."


130 posted on 12/15/2005 8:20:27 AM PST by BlueStateDepression
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