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Palmeiro's surge began after Canseco became teammate [Rick Sutcliffe on former Cub Palmeiro]
St. Louis Post-Dispatch ^ | 08/04/2005 | Rick Hummel

Posted on 08/03/2005 8:34:12 AM PDT by newgeezer

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Palmeiro, the latest big leaguer to be issued a 10-game suspension for a positive steroids test, would hit only eight homers again in 1989 for Texas before gradually beginning his ascent to one of the game's prolific power hitters. He got to 14 in 1990, then 26 in 1991 and, after dropping to 22 in 1992, he had his first 30-plus homer season in 1993. Make of it what you will, but that was Jose Canseco's first full season in Texas. Palmeiro would go on to have 10 consecutive seasons of 37 or more homers - excluding the strike-shortened 1994 season - before he dropped to 23 last season and 18 so far this year.

. . .

But Sutcliffe, whose career ended with the Cardinals in 1994 basically because his body just broke down, admitted, "I wondered what I would have done," if he had been exposed to anabolic steroids or something similar. "Not only do you get bigger and stronger, but your recovery time is cut in half and, with most people, your [visual acuity] is doubled.

"When you look at people who used to put up big numbers and now they swing and miss at fastballs right down the middle, it makes me wonder.

"I think about guys like Frank Robinson (who had 586 homers) sitting there and watching these guys fly by him (in the home-run standings). Those are the guys I feel for."

Sutcliffe said he loved what Ryne Sandberg said when he was inducted into the Hall of Fame on Sunday, that those in the Hall "did it the right way and did it the natural way. Those Hall of Famers paved the way for the rest of us to see how the game was supposed to be played at its best - naturally."

But, as concerned as he is about the big leaguers, Sutcliffe really worries about what's happening well down the line.

"If I had a 14-year-old son, I'd be on the commissioner's doorstep applauding what he's done with the new policy but wanting more," Sutcliffe said. "There's a lot of (youths) who are getting (chemical) help and we've got to keep that from happening out of respect for the game. That's more important than what's going on at the big-league level. Are these kids doing something where no one knows still what the repercussions will be?

"Sure, you're going to hit the ball farther and your vision is going to be better and your recovery time will be cut in half. But what about your life being cut in half? How do we know?"

. . .

The Orioles surely had to know something was going to come down on Palmeiro when they tried to acquire first baseman Phil Nevin from San Diego last week. Why else would a team that needs pitching want to acquire another hitter? Nevin quashed the trade anyway.

Palmeiro's numbers - he is one of four players to have 3,000 hits and 500 home runs - were automatically Hall of Fame-worthy. But are they now? At age 40, he almost certainly will not be re-signed as a free agent unless somebody thinks he can reach 600 home runs for them.

. . .


I keep hearing how Palmeiro had "nothing to gain and everything to lose so, why would he use steriods?"

Well, I looked up the career home run leaders yesterday:

+ - Indicates Hall of Famer. Bold indicates active player
* - bats left-handed, # - switch hits, ? - unknown, else - bats right-handed

Rank Player (age) Home Runs Bats
1. Hank Aaron+  755 R
2. Babe Ruth+*  714 L

3. Barry Bonds* (39) 703 L
4. Willie Mays+  660 R
5. Frank Robinson+  586 R

6. Mark McGwire  583 R
7. Sammy Sosa (35) 574 R
8. Harmon Killebrew+  573 R
9. Reggie Jackson+*  563 L

10. Rafael Palmeiro* (39) 551 L
...      

20. Ken Griffey* (34) 501 L

Palmeiro started the season at #10 on the All-Time Career HR list. If he wanted to stay in the Top Ten for any length of time, he has even more reason to juice up (again) this year. With Griffey, Jr. hot on his heels, Palmeiro really needed to take 9th place from Reggie Jackson. To do so, Palmeiro needed to hit just 13 HRs in this, likely his final season. However, with A-Rod in mind, he should set his sights on 8th place, which means he needs to hit 23 HRs. Better yet, 36 would have him passing not only McGwire, but also Frank Robinson.Clearly, Palmeiro has much to gain from being healthy, strong, and sharp enough to hit 36 HRs this season. How much might he want to increase his chances of doing so?

1 posted on 08/03/2005 8:34:14 AM PDT by newgeezer
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To: newgeezer

A lot of us in Seattle had suspicions about Bret Boone. He had that out-of-nowhere phenomenal season in 2001, and he definitely looked beefed-up. And then the last two years, with the spotlight on steroids, he tailed WAY off with a noticeable drop in power and bat speed, and has now been cut by two teams in three weeks. Makes you wonder.


2 posted on 08/03/2005 8:39:48 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: Steve_Seattle

Were Jose Canseco and Brady Anderson ever seen together ?


3 posted on 08/03/2005 8:41:44 AM PDT by Gaetano
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To: newgeezer

We had a great long thread on this subject the other day. I'll repeat what I said at the time . . . Even before the steroid story came to light, I often said that Palmeiro had one of the most bizarre careers I've ever seen. I don't think there's been a more inconsequential 500-HR, 3,000-hit player in the history of major league baseball.


4 posted on 08/03/2005 8:42:09 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (I ain't got a dime, but what I got is mine. I ain't rich, but Lord I'm free.)
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To: Gaetano

I've completely forgotten about Brady Anderson - is he still in baseball?


5 posted on 08/03/2005 8:43:26 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: newgeezer

There is more to hitting for power than steroids? This makes it sound like anyone that's all there is to it. There are plenty of people who take steroids that couldn't hit a home run to save their life. Babe Ruth wasn't known for hitting for power at the start of his career? Is Rick Hummel going to tell me that he was on steroids? And why is an article dealing with the Cubs in a paper in their archenemies town?


6 posted on 08/03/2005 8:43:59 AM PDT by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: newgeezer

Another Mariner who's come under suspicion is Scott Spiezio. Three years ago, he was a beefy .280 hitter with 20-homer power for the Angels. Then he came to the M's just as the steroid scrutiny was gaining momentum, started losing weight, and lost all his batting skills, both for average and power. Again, it makes you wonder.


7 posted on 08/03/2005 8:48:22 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: Alberta's Child

At the chance of introducing vulgarity into this discussion I'm beginning to wonder if Palmeiro became a spokesman for Viagra because of, ahem, side effects from steroids.


8 posted on 08/03/2005 8:48:38 AM PDT by dsmatuska
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To: dsmatuska
"At the chance of introducing vulgarity into this discussion I'm beginning to wonder if Palmeiro became a spokesman for Viagra because of, ahem, side effects from steroids."

Hmmm...interesting theory.

9 posted on 08/03/2005 8:50:44 AM PDT by F16Fighter
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To: nickcarraway

No one is saying that steroids alone can make you a good hitter, or that you need steroids to be a good hitter. Steroids are a "performance enhancing" drug, which means they can make a bad hitter a little better, and a good hitter a little better; they can't make a lousy hitter a great hitter.


10 posted on 08/03/2005 8:51:02 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: Steve_Seattle
Up until the time the Mariners let Boone go announcers Rizzs and Niehaus were lobbying for him to get into the HOF, saying that his numbers compare favorably to (recently HOF inductee) Ryne Sandberg's. They seem to be ignoring Sandberg's nine Gold Gloves. I tell ya, if Boone makes the Hall then (at least) 1000 other players with similar #s would claim to be deserving.

No doubt Booney was juicing.

11 posted on 08/03/2005 8:52:49 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Steve_Seattle
Boone? Definitely a user....

Obviously NOT in the last couple of years as Seattle Fans will attest, eh? :-)

12 posted on 08/03/2005 8:53:05 AM PDT by F16Fighter
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To: dsmatuska
"At the chance of introducing vulgarity into this discussion I'm beginning to wonder if Palmeiro became a spokesman for Viagra because of, ahem, side effects from steroids."

Not far-fetched at all. He was a little young to be using Viagra - only about 37 when he started doing the commercials.
13 posted on 08/03/2005 8:53:19 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: F16Fighter

Yeah, now we got 'em. :-(


14 posted on 08/03/2005 8:54:09 AM PDT by dsmatuska
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To: Steve_Seattle

"No one is saying that steroids alone can make you a good hitter, or that you need steroids to be a good hitter. Steroids are a "performance enhancing" drug, which means they can make a bad hitter a little better, and a good hitter a little better; they can't make a lousy hitter a great hitter."


Can they make a good hitter with mediocre power into a great hitter with great power? That seems to be the case with Palmeiro.


15 posted on 08/03/2005 8:54:22 AM PDT by Kokojmudd (Outsource Federal Judiciary and US Senate to India, NOW!)
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To: dsmatuska

Boone, that is.


16 posted on 08/03/2005 8:54:59 AM PDT by dsmatuska
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To: nickcarraway
There is more to hitting for power than steroids?

Certainly. But, steroids can make the difference between a long fly-out and a HR.

And why is an article dealing with the Cubs in a paper in their archenemies town?

From my reading of the article, it sounds like Sutcliffe, a former Cardinal, was in town to work a game for ESPN, and Hummel took the opportunity to get a good story. I'm sure I'm far from being the only Cardinals fan who remembers Palmeiro's days as a Cub and got a real kick out of reading Sutcliffe's recollections.

17 posted on 08/03/2005 8:54:59 AM PDT by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.)
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To: Alberta's Child
I often said that Palmeiro had one of the most bizarre careers I've ever seen.

No doubt.

Still, nothing beats Barry Bonds peaking in his late 30s -- unprecedented in the history of baseball. And not just peaking, but playing a brand of baseball that a 25 - 30 year old Bonds couldn't even dream of.

18 posted on 08/03/2005 8:56:27 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Kokojmudd
Can they make a good hitter with mediocre power into a great hitter with great power? That seems to be the case with Palmeiro.

That's exactly what steroids may have done for someone like Jason Giambi. Before his health problems in the last couple of years, his career numbers were pretty similar to Palmeiro's over the course of a few years. He went from a .290-.300, 20-HR, 85-90 RBI hitter to a .340, 35-45 HR, 120+ RBI pretty quickly.

19 posted on 08/03/2005 8:59:13 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (I ain't got a dime, but what I got is mine. I ain't rich, but Lord I'm free.)
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To: Alberta's Child

I was watching a replay of a Yankees game from the late 70s on espn classic recently. Reggie Jackson, a big man, looked like a toothpick compared to some of today's ballplayers.....and when he swung the bat it looked like he was swinging for the moon everytime.


20 posted on 08/03/2005 9:02:44 AM PDT by Kokojmudd (Outsource Federal Judiciary and US Senate to India, NOW!)
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