Lord of the Rings - help needed (vanity)

[hispanichoosier]

I need help with LOTR. Two friends and I were discussing the books and movies last weekend. Friend 1 observed that the relationship between Frodo and Sam (in the movies) had homosexual overtones. Friend 2 retorted that the relationship is based on the master/servant relationship of old England and that Friend 1 was looking at it through American eyes, where rugged individualism is more prized. I--caught in the middle--had to admit that I thought that Sean Astin overplayed Sam at times but was great overall.

So, was Friend 1 right about the gay overtones, or was Friend 2's explanation correct? I'm rather at a loss over the whole debacle.

[stands2reason]

Yeah, but we can assume that hobbits age slower than humans, and EW wasn't 16 anyway.

[stands2reason]

But I'm sure Elijah's grown up enough to date though ;-)

[Alkhin]

Can I join ya?

*droooooool*

[cyborg]

I just started reading The Hobbit. I do recall that one guy in the movie said he liked to rip out pages of the hotel bibles that references homosexuality though.

[stands2reason]

Which, that he has a cute everything, or he's a good singer?

He sang in ROTK -- "Pippin's song" in Gondor, remember?

Now, on cute "everything", I'm guessing on the parts that are typically kept clothed. :-)

[stands2reason]

BB used to front a band.

I wish he'd put out an album.

[Alkhin]

I always had the impression that hobbits lived about 100 years (how old was the Old Took? I can't remember if Bilbo was supposed to have exceeded the Old Tooks years, and I remember Pippin made some remark to Bilbo at the end that if Bilbo could outdo his great granddaddy, he might as well try to outdo Bullroarer) so fifty years being the mid way mark would easily put Frodo in the prime of life, equivalent of 30s for us, which is the prime of life for us. And coming of age at 33 would be like graduating at 18 from high school. If Frodo inherited the Ring at 33/18, then I would rather expect him to look rather young.

It never did look right to me to have Frodo look like some worn-out fat guy who spent most of his life drinking and smoking. Lij was perfect for the part.

Monaghan looked nothing like I had expected of Merry though. (ooops...there I go again!)

[Alkhin]

Yep - that was Ian McKellan, who is a professed communist homosexual.

very sad, really, that he shoudl play such a wonderfully spiritual part like Gandalf while having such a selfish soul of his own.

[cyborg]

Wow that's tragic indeed.

[stands2reason]

If you guys are talking about THAT genetic advantage, I'll give you a hint.

Big head, wide nose, rich timbre of voice (baritone or lower) are the cues.

I'm not sure on the big hands, but height had nothing to do with it.

[Alkhin]

Yep - I know he talked of getting back with them periodically...was following him as a fan for a bit after FOTR. Got tired of hearing about how I should care about the trees though.

Am I the only one who thinks that PJ and company were off the mark as far as Treebeard being all about environmentalism????

I know Tolkien loved trees and would probably encourage environmentalism, but I cant help but think he would be appalled at what the envirowhacks are doing now.

Maybe not. As much as I love Tolkien, his tastes in politics leaves me cold.

[af_vet_rr]

The relationship between Sam and Frodo has its base in the master/servant relationship but there's more to it than that. Tolkien had a very high regard for male friendship.

Not only that, but it has to be looked at through the eyes of the person who wrote it (especially in this case, Tolkien's service in WWI, and his son's service in WWII) and the British take on male friendship in general.

To apply an American POV to this is just ignorant.

[Alkhin]

Now, on cute "everything", I'm guessing on the parts that are typically kept clothed. :-)

He has other parts?! J/K

I cant ever get past those beautiful green eyes, and wonderful mouth...

is it hot in here????

[stands2reason]

Pippin was okay.

Merry was totally miscast. Totally. Merry is a classy guy, not a yobbo Manc who roots for United.

Sean played Sam a bit too Alda-ish -- he was rougher in the book, I thoguht.

[stands2reason]

Sure!

[Alkhin]

Agreed. I thought Boyd did a fine job as Pip...my objections are about the lines he was given, and the perception that he crafted with the help of PJ/Boyens/Walsh that he did the things because he was incredibly stupid. That Pippin was actually a very smart young hobbit who did some VERY VERY thoughtless things was what made him The Fool, not that he was a dimwit who the others couldn't get rid of. I cant tell you how shocked and dismayed I was when they were with Treebeard, and Pippin started talking about going home. Sorry, but that wasnt what I ever read in the books...in fact, that was MERRY who was thinking that...so in short, they all got those characters screwed up.

Agreed on Merry, too :D

Yeah, I think Sam was rougher too, but I think that kind of goes in line with the master/servant relationship that they watered down so much. I think the only thing I didnt think was all that Sam-ish was the fact that he was more equal in standing to the others...

[NoClones]

friend 1 may be a hostetss twinkie in disguise, methinks

[stands2reason]

Yeah, they didn't make the class distinctions clear that were clear in the book.

[Tax-chick]

That's not what I meant!

[Tax-chick]

He sang in ROTK -- "Pippin's song" in Gondor, remember?

I think I fell asleep before that.