Posted on 02/11/2005 9:29:29 PM PST by restornu
Pot, meet Kettle.
This will be a big issue in the 2008 presidential primaries. The MSM will be primed to ask the candidates their views about creationism (or ID, which is the same, but even more dishonest).
That's my prediction. And the creationists -- in their infinite foolishness -- are giving the dems the rope with which to hang us all.
...and died in 1993, an event of whicht he author is unaware. I'm sure Olson didn't say this, at least in the context it's presented. He taught TOE to non-science majors at Berkeley, for heaven's sake.
"there exists, as well, a generally silent group of students engaged in biological pursuits who tend to disagree with much of the current thought, but say and write little because they are not particularly interested, do not see that controversy over evolution is of any particular importance, or are so strongly in disagreement that it seems futile to undertake the monumental task of controverting the immense body of information and theory that exists in the formulation of modern thinking." As to how many had actually deserted ranks, Olson contended that it is "difficult to judge the size and composition of this silent segment, but there is no doubt that the numbers are not inconsiderable." (Olson E.C., in Tax S., ed., "Evolution after Darwin," Vol. 1, 1960, p.523, in Rifkin J., "Algeny," 1983, pp.114-115).
he's clearly talking about Biology students, right, presumably college students.
Stark changed it to this
The eminent observer Everett Olson notes that there is "a generally silent group" of biological scientists "who tend to disagree with much of the current thought" about evolution, but who remain silent for fear of censure.
So the students are now scientists, and the bit about fear of censure is totally made up. And the quote was from an address in 1959.
What a goddamn liar!
I am going to get the original articles, and make an academic fraud complaint to Baylor. This is beyond any reasonable definition of academic honesty.
Give me an example of a creationist or IDer who has proposed any argument not found in William Paley's "Natural Theology", published in 1802.
The last really great scientific opponent of evolution was Louis Agassiz (1807-1873).
I'm afraid you're right.
We need some prominent Republicans to go public as pro-evolutionists but I don't see any likely candidates.
What's the betting that Stark's Olson quote will start to appear verbatim on all manner of creationist websites with no dating or explanation of Olson's evident views on the matter.
I present the challenge to identify one IDer or creationist you won't scoff at. So you respond by saying (I guess) that you scoff at only 20th and 21st century IDers and Cretionists. Is that your final answer?
Well, look at the material we have to work with. In the present thread, we're discussing an article by a creationist professor of comparative religion and sociology, at a major Christian university, who seems to have committed an egregious piece of academic fraud. One would think that having spent a career extolling the need for religion in society, he would himself at least acquired a habit of truth-telling, if only not to discredit his cause by his own actions. Evidently not though.
Doesn't this worry you?
http://www.christianity.ca/faith/weblog/2004/8.24.html
The hardest part of debating creationists is fighting off the immediate rush of contempt, born of the experience that so often the past other creationists have proven to be liars, that the probability is high one's present antagonist will be a liar too.
MR. MORGAN: You are Dr. Stark, is that right?
DR. STARK: Yes.
MR. MORGAN: What is your occupation or calling?
DR. STARK: I am Professor of Sociology and Comparative Religion at the University of Washington.
(Curriculum vitae dated August 1983 of Rodney Stark marked for identification as plaintiff Exhibit 22.)
MR. MORGAN: Let me show you what’s been marked as Exhibit 22, and I will ask you to identify that document.
DR. STARK: Yes, it is my vitae.
MR. MORGAN: How current is your vitae?
DR. STARK: Well, this is 1983. I guess there’s been another book, and I suppose far too many articles.
MR. MORGAN: I will offer that into evidence at this time, Your Honor.
JUDGE SEYRANIAN: Be accepted.
MR. MORGAN: Do you want to tell us something about your education, where you went to college and what degrees you received?
DR. STARK: I got a degree in journalism from the University of Denver, and I have an M.A. and a Ph.D. from the University of California at Berkeley.
MR. MORGAN: And the Ph.D.?
DR. STARK: Sociology.
MR. MORGAN: Did you also have some experience in journalism?
DR. STARK: Yes, I was a reporter for the Oakland Tribune and the Denver Post.
MR. MORGAN: Can you tell us what years you did that?
DR. STARK: The Denver Post in the middle fifties, and then I was in the army, and then I was at the Oakland Tribune in `59 and `60, and I think a little bit of `61. That was a very long time ago.
MR. MORGAN: Then did you go to Berkeley?
DR. STARK: Yes. Well, I started at the Tribune, and then after a year of that I started at Berkeley, and then I did both for awhile.
MR. MORGAN: Do you have some particular specialty at the present time?
DR. STARK: Yes, I would have to say that my specialty all along has pretty much been the sociology of religion with particular emphasis, say, in the last period in religious movements.
MR. MORGAN: Can you tell the court generally what is the field of sociology of religion?
DR. STARK: It is anything anybody wants to call it, but as opposed to historians, we are not so interested in a specific group over a long period of time as opposed to psychologists or anthropologists.
There are many things. What is the effect of religion on crime rates, for example, would be a perfectly appropriate set of topics. What is the nature of religious movements, how do they recruit, how do they form, how do they grow, what separates the winners from the losers. That would also be the sociology of religion. What is the implication of Protestantism on the rise of industrialization in western Europe is another classic area, so it goes all over the map.
MR. MORGAN: You have indicated that you were in 1982 and 1983 the president for the Association for the Sociology of Religion. Can you tell the court something about that organization, what it is?
DR. STARK: Well, it is an international scholarly society made up of people who are sociologists in religion.
MR. MORGAN: As president, is that an elective office?
DR. STARK: That is an elective office, and it is largely ceremonial and honorific.
MR. MORGAN: Then you have listed a number of pages of books and articles. I won’t go into those, but I gather that you have written constantly, is that correct?
DR. STARK: It is my disease.
MR. MORGAN: Were you requested to make an evaluation for me of the “Local Church,” its people, and the publications by SCP and Mr. Duddy?
DR. STARK: Yes, I was.
MR. MORGAN: Can you tell the court what you did in that regard? Were you also asked to do something else? Were you asked to review something in the book regarding the use of your name?
DR. STARK: Yes, I was asked to read some pages, which didn’t take very long, that purported to explicate something that I have gotten some, I guess, notoriety or whatever for. It is a theory of conversion that’s been around for twenty years, and I was asked to see if Duddy had reported it correctly and applied it appropriately.
MR. MORGAN: We will get to it again later, but what was your conclusion?
DR. STARK: If a student had ever given me that, a freshman, I'd have flunked him.
MR. MORGAN: Tell the court what you did by way of study of the “ Local Church" and review of the publications.
DR. STARK: Well, to a much less extent than some of the earlier witnesses, I have gone out and met members. I have attended some services. I have been in the Freeman home. I have seen the headquarters in Seattle. I have looked at a lot of TV tape. I have read or read parts of a substantial number of publications by Witness Lee.
MR. MORGAN: Let me go now to the publication. Does The God-Men purport to be a sociological study of the “Local Church”?
DR. STARK: Yes, it does. It says specifically in the very beginning of the book that it has two basic strands that it is going to evaluate: on religious grounds and on sociological grounds.
MR. MORGAN: Can you comment for the court your opinion as to the merit of the sociological study?
DR. STARK: It has none.
MR. MORGAN: Can you tell us why it has none?
DR. STARK: Well, first of all, there is not the slightest effort to have given it any. As was said earlier today, there is no methodology; there is no social science here. No one collected any data. No one tried to formulate any testable hypotheses and see if they were confirmed vis-…-vis what goes on in the “Local Church.” There isn’t a shred of sociology to it. There is the invoking of some sociological trappings
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!
Why don't we invert the challenge. After all, you seem to be coming from the angle that some ID/creationist arguments are sound so you ought to be aware of some.
You present an IDer or creationist argument that is soundly reasoned, worked out, and backed up by sound mathematics and/or experimentation that actually models the phenomenon that the argument relates to, and which relates to a genuine belief of modern mainstream biological science. Then we'll debate it.
Why don't we invert the challenge
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Because I'm businessman with some econ training, not a natural scientist. I know a bit about how argumentation works but nothing about science. I've seen plenty of stupidity from both sides as I've said.
I'm asking you if all those who question evolution are idiots, or frauds or both and so far I guess I have to assume the answer from the evo guys is "yes."
Questioning evolution is fine. Of itself it is not an idiotic or fraudulent activity. Questioning ToE without understanding what it is is idiotic. Questioning ToE with cod-scientific arguments that don't stand up to critical examination (but which are designed to appeal to laymen) is fraudulent. I haven't yet seen an anti-evolution argument that doesn't fall into one of those two camps.
Many creationists who appear to be profoundly ignorant of science and the data come onto these boards and parrot type #2 arguments that they have got from creationist websites and that they plainly don't understand themselves. I don't know whether to characterize that behavior as idiotic, fraudulent, or both.
Doesn't this worry you?
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No. Because I don't care what the truth is on this. I jsut want to know what it is and I find lots of BS on both sides as I've said. But it bothers me.
If I follow the Olsen thing and you are reporting it correctly and if that is indeed the passage stark is working from then his piece icnludes a downright misconstruction of another persons writings.
I've tried to listen to the evolutionists on this and find them as dishonest as you find the creationists. I've read Dawkins and he is really an ass. He's doing your side no good. His bit about the computer generated insects in Blind Watchmaker is laughable.
I also got a book buy a guy named Tim Berra from Ohio State about the Myth of Creationism. In there he lists some of the direct benefits of evolutionary theory including development of more productive strains of crops. Excuse me? You don't need any knowledge of evolution to develop hybrids. What a Goddam liar as you put it. So how much hay can I make of this. Here I've read two celebrated scientists addressing the issue and they are full of it.
I'm not looking to prove evolution wrong, I'm not looking for its worst proponents, I'm looking for the best, and none of them address the best arguments of the ID side. At least not that I've found.
My Uncle was a professor there as well. I will ask if they knew each other. My uncle is a geophysicist.
Not necessarily, the phrase "student of" does not necessarily have to refer to what we commonly think of as students. Reading the entire quote provided by RWP seems to leave open the possibility that the author of the quote is speaking of professionals, not undergrad or grad students.
Just as Robin Yount was often described as a student of the game of baseball, Robin Yount was at the same time a professional baseball player.
The phrasing is odd and it could be that this author distorted the original meaning but I think that is not conclusive.
Excellent. When he is confronted with what he's done, the angels will sing. I applaud you.
Even if you accept that much, the "fear of censure" thing is just spun out of whole cloth - I don't see anything in the original that can even remotely be construed to mean that.
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