The Neverending Story

Free Republic | 3/24/01 | The NES Crew

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I'm taking the question that the virgin birth was not prophesied.

I can not, even hypotheticlly imagine what my faith would be if it was prosphesied but not fulfilled.

The NT bible was written so that people could believe and become Christian. All events put together is WHY we believe. The OT has to be true because of the NT, the NT has to be true because of the OT:) Does that make sense?

Becky

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The NT bible was written so that people could believe and become Christian. All events put together is WHY we believe. The OT has to be true because of the NT, the NT has to be true because of the OT:) Does that make sense?

Oh ok. I didn't realize you were just focusing on the "OT" part of it. From your perspective it wouldn't matter cuz whether or not its in the OT it would still be in the NT. Gotcha. :-)

[OLD REGGIE]

To clarify, Isaiah doesn't say "virgin", but Matthew clearly does.

Yes, Mathew and Luke. It is the incorrect "Christian" interpretation of Isaiah which is the issue.

In a prior post I quoted, but did not attribute, the Christian spin on the word "Almah". Strongs on "Almah"

[newgeezer]

Oh, boy. They started without us. And look; it's in "General/Chat" now.

[OLD REGGIE]

Of course, the Catholic church doesn't teach the doctrine of eternal security, so there is no way that a Catholic can "know for sure" that he is saved.

Not to worry. If Dave wears the Brown Scapular Mary has promised him he'll be ok.

"Whosoever dies wearing this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire."

And....the RCC has accepted the Miracle at Fatima.

[SoothingDave]

Not to worry. If Dave wears the Brown Scapular Mary has promised him he'll be ok.

It's just like the football gods have declared that anyone who puts on a Steeler uniform is going to be victorious. The uniform is a symbol of the level of excellence acheived by the individual players. They could put Myron Cope in a Steeler uniform, but it won't make him a good football player.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Oh, boy. They started without us. And look; it's in "General/Chat" now.

We're slipping. Should of had your back on those Mary pings. :-)

[CindyDawg]

I never said you did. I was saying though that Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after Jesus' birth so he wasn't the biological father. God put these questions to rest with he did not "know" her. So, if Mary wasn't a virgin, them she was cheating. We know this wasn't so though because of how God spoke of her. So what are you left with? A virgin birth! Is it that complicated? :')

[OLD REGGIE]

It should be obvious that the Greek translation doesn't predate the Hebrew scriptures. It is further obvious to anyone who has studied the history of the "septuagints" that there is nothing especially authoritative about them.

Isn't it amazing how many still argue from THE Septuagint as if there were only one version? That's somewhat like sifting through the Catholic Catechism to prove a point. You are bound to find something to satisfy your argument.

[CindyDawg]

who was the biological mother of James and Joseph and Simon and Judas and His sisters?

There is no mention of "Joseph's children" Mary later became his "wife". It would be natural to assume she was but if not it makes no difference .

[OLD REGGIE]

You want to cite "Apocrypha" and "manuscript evidence" when it favors your interpretation of Jewish scripture. Are you willing in turn to use Christian apocrypha and manuscript evidence in the same way? Can I cite, say, the "Gospel of Mary", the Pseudoclementines, and the "Epistle of Barnabas" as authoritative sources?

Not only did they discard the Gospel Of Mary (The Apostle to the Apostles), for many years they taught that she was a prostitute. (One of the few changes in Catholic teaching over the years. :-)

[IMRight]

Isn't it amazing how many still argue from THE Septuagint as if there were only one version? That's somewhat like sifting through the Catholic Catechism to prove a point. You are bound to find something to satisfy your argument.

That would be an interesting argument if there were a copy of the Septuagint that used "like a lion" - there isn't. There ARE, however, MT manuscripts that are NOT consistent with the "like a lion" argument (though it now opens up whether the correct translation is "dug" or "pierced" - it is not "like a lion").

It's really a pretty simple argument... One of three things happened:

1) A weird coincidence that ends up causing unnecessary strife.
2) The Jews changed Scripture to support a theological position.
3) The Christians changed Scripture to support a theological position.

#3 is by far the least likely - since it requires Christianity to not only be false... but to have been planned a hundred or more years prior to the "time of Christ" in anticipation of the argument... and change it under the noses of the rest of the Jews.

All that would be necessary to disprove this is to show a manuscript that predates the need for the change that shows "like a lion". There is none. (Oh, and it would be nice to come up with SOME explanation for the grammar as well - but that's secondary).

[OLD REGGIE]

We have no idea.

How inclusive is your "we"?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Not only did they discard the Gospel Of Mary (The Apostle to the Apostles), for many years they taught that she was a prostitute. (One of the few changes in Catholic teaching over the years. :-)

Protestants as well. I'd always been under the impression back in the day that Mary Magdalene was a hooker.

[IMRight]

Can you supply a usage of the word (in or out of the OT) where it clearly did NOT mean "virgin"?

[OLD REGGIE]

There would still be His miracles and His resurrection. My faith would continue.

Becky

In some small way we are in agreement.

[IMRight]

How inclusive is your "we"?

I'm a very inclusive guy. :)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

What do you know today Reggie? :)

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Just to be clear, so I"M not put n the camp of a biblical unitairin:) it's a VERY small way that we are in agreement:)

Becky

[Invincibly Ignorant]

What do you know today Reggie? :)

I'll answer that for him. He knows that IMRight is a very inclusive guy. :-)