GERMAN SHEPHERD ONWER'S HELP NEEDED.

SADLY ME

[WHATNEXT?]

My beautiful German Shepherd has become more agressive lately and the time to decide his future is upon us before something happens to us or someone else.

We got him from a breeder of Schuntzhund shepherds. We took him to some training until we decided he was to inclined to be aggressive and that Schuntzhund training was not what he needed. His breeder even told us she knew he would bite (saw it in him as a puppy -- but big money made her not mention it to us apparently--that was the last time we took him to Schuntzhund -- at least 8-9 months ago). We struggled with discipline and attempting to make sure he knew who the boss was.

We decided to neuter him in the slight hope that his aggression would modify. This took away any value of him in field trials or obviously breeding. We had not purchased him to train as a champion, only for a sense of security in a rural setting and after mourning our previous Shepherd for over 2 years, to seek another wonderful Shepherd.

Over the holidays we had company staying in our home that he growled at (he knew them), he growled at both my husband and myself, and he did slightly break my husband's skin on his arm. This morning I leaned over to pet his head and he growled, I strongly reprimanded him, he continued to growl, I demanded that he get out the front door, which he did but growling all the way. He has spent the day outside. He has always growled over his food (we swore we would never tolerate that behavior). We don't think we could ever trust himk with our little grandchildren

So, we have hit the end of our road with him. He is only 19 months old, beautiful, very intelligent and has does have many pleasing personality traits. Our choices: Shepherd rescue group (we will try but most needing rescue are under different circumstances), dog pound, training (we have tried and I'm no soft touch) or euthansia.

This is so depressing.

[AnAmericanMother]

Sounds like a cool test. Blind retrieves is certainly something we trained for, because they often don't see the bird go down. They look at you because you made the noise ;~D

That's why the bird boys have a duck call which they employ vigorously (and, in training, shout "Hey! Hey! Hey!") before they launch the duck. Shelley is already trained to align herself with my feet, and look out in that direction when I say, "There's your mark!" When I handle the gun myself (which won't be until Seasoned), I will train her to follow the direction the gun barrel is pointing. Of course us humans can see over the top of the holding blind, so we know where the bird is going to fall!

Shelley watching where the bird is going to fall (she is following my pointing finger, which is probably considered cheating in the higher levels. But in Started, much is forgiven both dog and handler.)

[HairOfTheDog]

They figure it out once they realize what the point is. In real hunting situations on upland birds with a pair of flushing dogs, there is usually a really long walk where it's quiet, and then just a sudden unexpected flurry and boom. Sometimes they see it go down, and sometimes they don't but they are excited that ~something~ happened!

For a long time we were all new, the dogs and I, and I would try but couldn't hit any birds. They got to where they thought flushing them and boom and watching them all fly away ~was~ the whole game. ;~D

[AnAmericanMother]

Before I take Shelley hunting for real, I'm hitting the skeet field for some serious practice.

I used to be able to break in the high 80s/low 90s, but I'm a bit out of shape.

She also points, BTW.

[HairOfTheDog]

It's fun... Thought about getting a couple 'his and hers' lab pups and getting back into it because ecurbh got a kick out of shooting shotgun.

But with new horse and now new rescue dog, we've got enough hobbies for the moment. ;~D

[ken21]

the onwer neads hep, or the dog?

[Vigilantcitizen]

Here you are, braggin about your gourgeous dog again. ;)

BTW...I've known labs that will "point".

[AnAmericanMother]

'Course I brag about my gorgeous dog. She's the only one I've got.

She had a busy weekend. Friday 8 until 12:30 she was out working birds on the hunt club's farm (land and water). Saturday morning from 10 to 12 she was at the agility field practicing for her next trial. On the Sabbath she rested (except for her regular two mile walk) - she's still napping here on the old armchair in the computer room.

[AnAmericanMother]

How is that old itchy black and white dog doing?

Any sign of an owner?

[HairOfTheDog]

No sign of an owner... and he's a lot less itchy on Advantage now. He gets wormed next week.

He's great for Gidget... they ~play~. having a good time, and he likes the couch.

[AnAmericanMother]

That was such a funny picture you posted of him with the toy in his mouth, and Gidget giving him this look. I laughed out loud.

I'm glad they're having a good time. Dogs ought to have a playmate.

< AAM stops, looks carefully around to see if husband or children heard what she just said. >

[HairOfTheDog]

This one?

They are still fightin' over them toys.. ;~D

Gidget controlled both toys momentarily this morning....

But he got the rope away from her.

So she had to have the rope...

Tune back in next week for the next exciting episode: "Remembering how much we really wanted the red bouncy thingy."

[AnAmericanMother]

That is SO cute!

I love the picture of them both tugging on the rope. They look like mirror images of each other - very similar head and ears - even the nose markings.

There's a rather chubby (97 pound) black Lab in our neighborhood named Otis, who lives with a rather standoffish Ridgy who won't play with him. When their owner walks them down our street, he always lets Otis off his leash when we're outside. Shelley loves to play tug o' war with Otis and his leash (he carries his own leash around when not wearing it). They spin round and round just pulling for dear life. Otis obviously outweighs Shelley by a lot (she's only 45 pounds) but she hangs on like grim death and spins round and round. Otis eventually is completely worn out by all the spinning and running, and drops the leash and flops over on his back. Shelley does a victory lap, then drops the leash and runs over to Otis and kisses him . . . while we're all rolling on the ground laughing . . .

I've got to take pictures of them some time, but Otis & Co. usually show up unexpectedly.

[HairOfTheDog]

They're getting along great. Makes him pretty easy to just keep since an owner didn't show up. I still think this dog at one time had a home that cared. He's well trained, very house trained and seems used to being inside. He does have tapeworms though I have discovered in cleaning up after him :~\ . Feed store was out of the right wormer, but I think they'll have it today.

[AnAmericanMother]

My theory is, if a dog or cat has fleas, it has tapes.

Found tapes in one of my cats once, to my horror . . . . now I have them on that injectable flea killer (not the one for dogs that was taken off the market) and we never have fleas OR tapes now.

What exactly is Advantage? I use Frontline on Shelley.

[HairOfTheDog]

It's the same as Frontline, drops that go between the shoulderblades but it doesn't also do ticks. We don't really have ticks around here.

I haven't had to treat for fleas for a long time, but I'm treating them all now because this guy brought them.

I loved that shot when Logan was swimming all the time and washing any flea treatment off. Was good stuff.

[the OlLine Rebel]

http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/trainers.html

Any such trainers near you? They may deal w/the problem types specifically, and *serious* training could help - not the feel-good stuff (hip w/German-type trainers into that too, to an extent, so don't be fooled thinking they're tough). I'm no expert at all but I've seen/heard enough to be somewhat aware. Not to mention sometimes experts can't see the forest for the trees.

(I know I will be pilloried for that suggestion but....too bad. Better reformed dog than dead.)


Also, this is probably out in left field, but could there be a medical problem? I know he's young but is it possible he could have a brain problem - maybe even a tumor? Not that you'd like to hear that either, but maybe it's worth checking.

[the OlLine Rebel]

A "protective" dog/breed isn't bad. An aggressive dog is.

I really don't know much but it concerned me when my sister's breeder/trainer/friend insisted on getting the pups into the aggression part of Schutzhund 1st, waiting for the giant adulthood before regular obedience! This seems pretty standard w/Schutzhund types.

Old Yanto was a wonderful sweet dog, but even he I think was neglected by allowing him to be 110 lbs before doing obedience (i.e., he would still drag any1 who walked him half the time). Other dogs who are more aggressive being roped into "protection" - I just don't know.

And that was the kicker - Barb went in for the whole 9 yards - "we're going to train your dog as well as sell it to you". Barb of course liked them and thought it was the thing to do, but her newest pup (also happy) is now large and still not well-behaved generally (she's getting sick of him destroying things). This all sounds wonderful and responsible, but frankly, if you don't like the results, why should you have to buy the training as well as the dog himself?

Back on track more - nothing wrong w/assertive and dominant (NOT the same as "aggressive") dogs, or breeds generally. I just don't see the need to take a dog who's naturally protective and try to stamp it into him, when, as you indicated, an alarm is good enough. They don't need all that protection training. It's nice (for a good dog) but only icing on the cake. Obedience is the only necessity.

Believe me, nothing better than a solid German Shepherd peeking thru the window who just sounds the alarm.

Nobody bodder me!

[HairOfTheDog]

Thanks! We had a good discussion here! Wondered where you were!

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't think the Schutzhund trainer I know would do protection work with just any owner, even on his own dogs he sold them. He leaves that for people who are participating in the sport, not for family pets. Family pets get obedience only.

But they do wait to do obedience on the sport dogs, to make them bolder and not interfere with their 'confidence'. yeah - they come around eventually, but if they lived at my house, I'd think like you.

[the OlLine Rebel]

I've never personally known a bad Shepherd (I've known of some, but not at all close). I've had 3 now (females) and my sister 2 (males). I've had a cheap 1 from a local farm w/o papers and 2 AKC registered (including German lines) for $500 (both "then" and "now". The 1st registered dog I had - fantastic, unequalled, and happily self-assuredly dominant (co-worker: "Scary as hell when approaching the door but come inside welcome, and she was the nicest dog"). My dog now - sweet and sappy, but wimpy and full of allergies (German lines). Sister's 2 dogs also happy-go-lucky types. Current 1 (yearling) is having problems w/destructiveness but he is another love-bunny. Oh and BTW, sister's dogs both very expensive German-only lines (the last 1 had bad allergies, too, like my pup. German lines = allergies, any1?).

Heck even my farm-owning aunt's friend's last Shepherd - years ago - was running all over the animal farm harmlessly when doing chores, nice dog if a bit goofy.