Posted on 01/08/2005 5:49:18 PM PST by WHATNEXT?
My beautiful German Shepherd has become more agressive lately and the time to decide his future is upon us before something happens to us or someone else.
We got him from a breeder of Schuntzhund shepherds. We took him to some training until we decided he was to inclined to be aggressive and that Schuntzhund training was not what he needed. His breeder even told us she knew he would bite (saw it in him as a puppy -- but big money made her not mention it to us apparently--that was the last time we took him to Schuntzhund -- at least 8-9 months ago). We struggled with discipline and attempting to make sure he knew who the boss was.
We decided to neuter him in the slight hope that his aggression would modify. This took away any value of him in field trials or obviously breeding. We had not purchased him to train as a champion, only for a sense of security in a rural setting and after mourning our previous Shepherd for over 2 years, to seek another wonderful Shepherd.
Over the holidays we had company staying in our home that he growled at (he knew them), he growled at both my husband and myself, and he did slightly break my husband's skin on his arm. This morning I leaned over to pet his head and he growled, I strongly reprimanded him, he continued to growl, I demanded that he get out the front door, which he did but growling all the way. He has spent the day outside. He has always growled over his food (we swore we would never tolerate that behavior). We don't think we could ever trust himk with our little grandchildren
So, we have hit the end of our road with him. He is only 19 months old, beautiful, very intelligent and has does have many pleasing personality traits. Our choices: Shepherd rescue group (we will try but most needing rescue are under different circumstances), dog pound, training (we have tried and I'm no soft touch) or euthansia.
This is so depressing.
Rabauke is his star. Absolutely magnificent dogs. They look like statues of great dogs. Has a younger star too now, Cruger, that I haven't seen in person.
He had some training, but perhaps not the best. It was like he had a jekyll/hyde thing going on. He would look at us sometimes like he truly didn't know who we were. It was so scary. However, at times he was so loving and gentle. It was like his brain had become re-wired. We still feel so bad, but we were afraid of being permanently injured as his attacks were intense, not just a nip.
. . . and I bet those Shepherds never brought back a single duck. Not one. Bet they hate to get wet, too.
ROTFL!
He is absolutely smitten with my Shelley, though. When she was a tiny puppy (10 weeks) on her first walks through the neighborhood, we passed Sidney's house. Of course he came boiling up to the fence barking his head off - I expected Shelley to roll over - instead she went straight out to the end of the leash at him and barked at him right back. It was love at first sight. She is now almost 4, and whenever we pass his house Sidney trots up to the fence with his tail wagging and puts his nose through to greet Shelley. They have met outside on the sidewalk, and Sidney's owners were a little apprehensive at Shelley's boisterous bouncing on the end of her leash until Sidney puppy-bowed to her and kissed her!
She is the queen of all clowns, so I guess opposites attract.
A lot of the males aren't good players with other dogs just because they are so Alpha. But his dogs I've seen playing with others. ~His~ sport dogs aren't aggressive. The bite work is a game. In those videos you'll see them working bite work ON Wayne. It's just a game with a guy in a bite suit. They'll play with the teasers after the game is over.
It's funny because when they've done well, the dog 'wins' the bite arm. I (joking) asked him if the police dogs he's sold ever are disappointed when the arm of the bad guy doesn't just come off. He said with a straight face "sometimes it does" ;~D
Might just as well shoot him.
You now have a couch ornament that stinks and still bites.
Aggressive behavior in dogs can be controlled in only one way, and that is by a more aggressive master.
A dog will be passive to only that person who dominates him. If he hold the dominant position in the family relationship, he will continue and if he cannot be dominated he must be destroyed before he hurts someone or worse.
If you cannot control him, put him down. Don't try to give this problem to someone else unless they fully understand what they are getting into and are willing to do what is necessary.(this happens all too often and results in broken friendships,as past experiences have taught me)
It was a joke, of course ;~D
Might just as well shoot him. You now have a couch ornament that stinks and still bites.
Come on now... Neutering him was a good move, along with some strong training that you and many of us have suggested.
Sometimes neutering is a last resort to control certain behavioral aspects, but aggression of the type explained by the poster is not one of them.
This dog sounds like a psyche case. The neutering will help with behavioral things like running the neighborhood, leg humping and other behaviors, but this dog sounds like he is brain damaged. His anti social aggressiveness will not be going away and may well get worse. It would be interesting to test the dog and see if he just needs a good can of whoopass. But that is a matter for his owner.
I hate having to put a dog down, but I hate it even worse when I delayed and it resulted in injuries to a family member.
I would not hesitate with this animal, but you are correct that I may not be seeing the entire picture.
Growling sometimes means little. There are other body language aspects that combined with growling that include ear positions, exposed teeth and general position and stance that indicate a dangerous dog to have in a family setting.
I have owned many aggressive dogs that I have not difficulty controlling, but I keep them away from kids and the like.
Some dogs cannot be controlled and this makes them useless and dangerous in a family environment. A loaded gun with no safety. A ticking bomb.
From what I read here, I would put it down.
I've gone back and forth on whether they should try to fix him or give him to a better handler or put him down, based on the description and following discussion. I'd like to hope they'll go to a pro and have him/her see the dog, and their handling of him... a pro who can see all those factors you describe that we cannot. And then follow the advice given.
Dogs will often learn to do certain things to get a reaction or attention.
In the end, it is not desirable for the owned or the dog to have this kind of situation. The dog seems to be trying to get a fear reaction that he can sense quite well. If this is a learned behavior, it can be corrected with long term training.
A good trainer should be able to determine this within a week or so and come up with a program or recommendation. Your idea is a good one.
But it may well be throwing good money after bad, I can't be sure without meeting the dog. I love animals, and I care a great deal about the ones under my roof. But I would not want to own something I feared or did not trust.
I hope everything works out.
I hope everything works out too! and that our poster lets us know how it goes.
I agree that it makes no sense to automatically rule out disciplinary measures, but I also agree that with some kinds of aggression, calming the dog works best.
We rescued my shepherd/border collie mix from the shelter, where he had been ruled "vicious and unadoptable." It turns out he was neurotic and fear aggressive; he didn't respond well to stare-downs, etc. because they simply made him more nervous/fearful/aggressive. We rehabilitated him by immediately putting him in "time-out" in the room where he sleeps every time he did something that we deemed unacceptable. He would be up there from ten minutes or so up to an hour, depending on the transgression. This imposed our will but also quieted/calmed him when he misbehaved.
WhatNext, have you considered that your dog possibly likes going outside, and growls/nips in order to elicit this "punishment?" Maybe try a room where he doesn't have a lot of stimulation (but not a bathroom -- too small, likely to make him more crazy). Just a suggestion -- I agree that you're probably better off talking first to your vet and then to a trainer. You can also research/email vet animal behaviorists for advice, often for free.
Fear aggression is one of the more difficult problems to solve. Removal from the situation till they calm down and long for company again is a good way, if anything works. "You can be scared, but you can't act ~that~ way" Reasoning with a panicked mind is harder than an angry one.
Exactly! He's still afraid of strangers, but now he just sits quietly behind us instead of growling at them. He very rarely growls at us now -- maybe a couple of times a year when he's very worked up. Then we drag him up to his room, and he's very quickly repentant. :)
He had a habit of enjoying the reactions of a scared rider. He would rear up like the lone ranger and if the rider tensed up he would take him/her for a joy ride until they got off.
I decided one day to put a stop to it and began tying him up on a short halter rope to a particular tree whenever he mis behaved. He hated this!
In short, the horse became one of the best I ever had.
Learned behaviors can be fixed, even a dog that likes to kill chickens.
But a psyche problem generally cannot be mitigated, like intense jealousy or irrational aggressiveness.
It is important to discern which problem the dog has.
I'm glad yours is better. I wanted to follow up because the poster said fear may be a part of this dog's misbehavior, in addition to the territorial or possession issues.
Sometimes I get lazy and don't say everything that should be said. I also hate to over-advise because I am not sure we really know the situation this owner is faced with...
...But I think you would agree, when a dog is fear-aggressive or even fearful and fractious, peeing all over themselves, it is no help to be harsh or punish, but the last thing you want to do is reward it with any kind of "ooh honey it's Oooookaaaay" kind of soothing or petting. Don't beat them for it, but certainly don't REWARD it... simply take them abruptly away (it has to feel like a direct consequence) from you and everyone else every time until keeping themselves together is the only way they get to stay in the group.
Actually putting him outside and letting him cool his paws does seem to calm the situation down. He was out all yesterday (not in his kennel) and looked longingly indoors (I know what dog wouldn't). I have not spoken to him or let him near me since the growling towards me two days ago -- until just now, I gave him his antibiotics on the front porch. He is also not to be permitted in "his" chair (that was the last growling location).
This is a complicated situation.
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