What's especially impressive to me is the "kind eye" that the dogs display.
Posted on 01/08/2005 5:49:18 PM PST by WHATNEXT?
Good morning.
No one here is suggesting just up and hanging or shocking this dog! I wouldn't give any kind of advice on what is appropriate until I had seen both the dog and the handlers and can read something about them with my own eyes. It's somewhat irresponsible for any of us to describe corrective measures or any kind of dominance 'test' without knowing more about what they are all capable of.
I think it is important for these people to get in touch with a real dog trainer who is experienced with strong dogs, and take an obedience class at the very least. It'd be fun, and they'd end up with a better dog. To give advice on specific corrective measures that might be expected to work magic would distract from that need.
Why do they growl at you? because they can't tell you to 'buzz off' or give you the finger ;~D
It doesn't mean he's a devil dog, it means he thinks his position is debatable. That's how they communicate. If you watch two dogs meet and play, there is lots of mouthing and growling and posturing and rough play, even if they don't actually fight. Through a change in your handling of him, you can fix this, but not in a day, I'd recommend a good obedience class. Not a magic fix, but training and discipline habits to use over the long term.
And they can be real fun.
"It's the nature of the beast for adolescent dogs to challenge their owners"
This has not been my experience. The only one that has ever growled at me or been rebellious, was my Alpha dog.
I agree that it does not mean hanging the dog or using a shock collar. Those tools IMO do more harm than good. I have raised German Shepherds and the personality differences are like humans. Some take guidance well and once in a while you run into the Alpha male. You should always use the minimum of discipline, but you do need to be consistant in your demands. An Alpha personality dog will except nothing less.
If this family does not have the ability to get this dog under control, then finding him a home with the police where they have the experience to control that personality is far better than destroying him. He can be both a happy and useful part of our society.
In the wrong hands, and on soft-willed dogs, I agree shock collars can be harmful. But in defense of them, they saved my ability to hunt and compete in obedience with my late Labrador male. He had a really strong personality, and a sex drive that was more important to him than I was. I'd lose him when hunting, to the other group of hunters a quarter mile away. When I could finally run him down, he'd be trying to mount some other hunter's dog despite our efforts, cringing knowing he was going to get hit and do it anyway. It was worth any consequence I could throw at him, until the collar.
I used it to enforce two off-leash commands, "come" and "stay". I don't mean zapping the heck out of the dog, I mean having the ability to reach out over long distances and enforce a very necessary command that he ~knows~ but is ignoring. There is no substitute for off-leash remote control. It is much more humane than trying to punish him when I finally ran him down, much more humane than him getting hit by a car because he wasn't under control. When he put it on, he got excited because it was work time. He didn't resent it. It wasn't abused.
Ping to the above.
I have a lab border collie cross and we had gotten him from someone who kept him in a cage all day and was going to put him down simply because she didn't have the time for him. When he came home he had all sorts of agression and herding issues, especially with small children and the cat, but now he's as sweet as can be. We didn't let him get away with a darn thing, and it worked.
Could it be that he was left inthe heat and has some brain damage or he is in some sort of pain froman injury? You don't mention Vet's in your message.
In the wrong hands it can be punitive, but it's absolutely necessary to hunt over a strong willed dog and if judiciously used is perfectly humane.
Only commands I enforce with the collar are "come", "sit", and "take it" (force fetch). The first two are first and foremost safety issues.
I have never burned my dog (held the button down) only nicked her (a momentary correction). She is now a joy to field trial (of course electronic collars aren't permitted on the field during competition) and I can't remember the last time I actually had to use it.
Putting anything with border collie in it in a cage all day just isn't fair.
I do crate my Lab when I'm gone during the day if the weather is really bad (good weather, she's outside in her run). Her crate is her den and she goes in there to nap during the day if she's tired. (That doesn't happen very often.)
Good post about shock collars. It isn't any more punitive than a leash correction if not overdone... it's the only kind of leash that works on a hunting dog.
You can imagine better than many here, my embarrassment with other hunters when Logan took off to join their party, interested in their sexy German Shorthair, not their birds.
Or when he'd get up and mount the Golden next to him while in his 3 minute sit-stay for his CDX.
Purchasing his remote trainer was the best thing I ever did, surpassed only by finally neutering him . ;~D
I can't crate my dog. He has a coniption because he thinks that we're going to leave him there. He's an extremely mellow dog, but very very smart.
My Logan got worse in a crate too. Some people at competitions crated their dogs between events and they'd come out fresh. Mine went in stressed and came out bananas ;~D He was much better off if I found a quiet corner where he could settle down and sit with me. High maintenance is what I called it ;~D
Second (and veterans of this doggie ping list will recognize this next bit!): be prepared to meet the needs of the dog you are planning to have as part of your family! All dogs are not created equal-temperament (a little musician lingo there, LOL!) and I freely admit I will never be prepared to adopt any animal, no matter how superior, that requires work to do (such as hunting or herding) and/or a high degree of disciplined family interaction as a basic tenet for a happy life...
Given that, it seems your young guy is not much like your old guy was, and that's the real crux of it. If I had a new young dog like yours, I would certainly take this problem "straight to the top", professionally speaking, and see what reliable experts would say (call the Marines!) about his personality and temperament. For instance, will this individual ever make a suitable family dog? How much training will it take? Is he perhaps a better candidate for the hard work and discipline of a life in law enforcement or the military? Or is he one of those very rare animals that simply have some wiring wrong and would've picked the wrong fight long ago if living in the wild?
The best of luck with this...and remember that you love this boy! He may not be able to respond to that right now, but that's not personally your fault, and if you do the right thing by him (whatever that ends up to be) you and he will know it!
Here's another wrinkle, just to make things worse and more complicated.
Whatnext, you now have to do something immediately about this dog. Another poster earlier in the thread pointed out the folks who went to prison because their dog killed the woman in the apartment hallway.
From a legal standpoint "every dog is entitled to his first bite." That's because the owner has to be on notice that his dog is inclined to bite before he's liable.
But with this post and this thread, you've made it quite public that you know this dog is a problem. That's your notice, and it's a matter of public record. If your dog bites somebody now, you're completely responsible and may be liable in punitive damages. And your homeowner's insurance may not cover it, depending on the exclusionary language in your policy.
So you need to make a decision today about what you're going to do, don't put it off. Take the dog for a consult with the best trainer you can find (HOTD's Dog God sounds like a good one and not too far away), return it to the breeder, or have it put down.
But do it NOW.
She's more likely to run off to go visit with her doggy friends in the holding blind or on deck for the agility ring . . . or to go kiss the judge (which she did in her first agility trial, to my total embarassment.)
But it's still disobedience, and has to be nipped in the bud.
Thirds!
I don't think my Dog God would mind the publicity of posting his website. (I'd be so embarrassed if he ever knew I said that, but it's true)
His Schutzhund dogs have fabulous drive and focus, and there are many videos segments and pics that show them working there. I am lucky to have been able to learn from him when he was still doing basic obedience classes on the side.
http://www.kraftwerkk9.com/index.php
What's especially impressive to me is the "kind eye" that the dogs display.
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