NTFS vs FAT32?

01-08-05 | Ed Chambers

[edchambers]

Just another one of my silly computer questions for the many knowledgable geeks on FR.I have several computers but only one running Windows XP.So far I'm mildly impressed with the stability of Windows XP home but not so happy with the finicky nature of it's NTFS file system.I have a couple of old DOS games that I like but XP running an NTFS file system will not let me install.I have the capability of reformatting the drive in FAT32 and reinstalling XP with that file system.What I'm wondering is will this help with backwards compatability for DOS based programs?

[ScottM1968]

It is without a doubt best to keep NTFS. NTFS is much more robust and self-healing than FAT32.

However, you may desire to repartition your hard drive to make room for a separate FAT32 drive space. There are multiple utilities available that will let you do this without rebuilding your hard drive from scratch. After installation, programs such as PartitionMagic or Acronis Disk Director can make a FAT32 drive area from some of your NTFS free space in as little as 30 minutes.

[MikefromOhio]

I am not entirely sure you can go back once in NTFS, but FAT32 does allow a lot of backwards compatibility....

[holymoly]

Search the net for a program called "DOSBox". It's a DOS emulator for NT based versions of Windows. You may also need the DOSBox "front end". Another program you may need/find useful is "VDMSound". (Be careful where you get them from.)

Without either/both, your chances of running any DOS software under XP will be slight.

Of course, you can do what I did; purhcase an old Pentium or Pentium 2, with 32mb RAM and Win9x. Windows 95b, 98 & 98SE run on a version of DOS (7.x) which supports FAT32 drives. (DOS 6.x and under only support FAT16.)

You may find this useful: HOTU's Guide to Windows XP Games (As I recall, if you look around the site you'll find links to safe downloads of DOSBox & VDMSound.)

[holymoly]

Note: I should add that some DOS programs will not run under new PCs unless the PC has been "slowed down" (Do you get a "runtime 200" error?). HOTU (link above) has several CPU slow-down utilities for download. You may need to "slow" your system before the DOS install(er) will work properly.

Turbo is a Windows slow-down utility.

[ScottM1968]

Just repartition the drive as I said in the earlier post and then make that partition the active boot one. When you do, you will then be able to install MS-DOS to it and run whatever DOS program you choose. And the partition will still be readable from Win XP.

However, for the most trouble-free access, you need to use a boot manager that will let you seamlessly boot XP or DOS without other intervention. These utilities are also available.

[boris]

"Without either/both, your chances of running any DOS software under XP will be slight."

The reason is that XP does not have DOS; it "emulates" DOS (and not very well). Basically any program that used a DOS emulator has no hope of running under XP. I "solved" that problem with MS Virtual PC (purchased from another company, natch). The only problem--aside from the cost--is that the Virtual PC has a 640x480 screen and I have not found any way to change that.

Perhaps "Dosbox" does better?

--Boris

[holymoly]

The reason is that XP does not have DOS

I am well aware of that. Windows NT, 2000 & XP use the NT kernel.

Many in the DOS community do use DOSBox and/or VDMSound to run DOS software under NT/2000/XP successfully.

Are they perfect? No. They are not a panacea for running DOS software under NT-based Windows.

Will they allow all DOS software to run under XP? No.

However, I see no harm in trying them. They are free. If they don't work, all the user has lost is a little time.

DOSBox:
http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/

VDMSound:
http://www.ece.mcgill.ca/~vromas/vdmsound/

[edchambers]

Thanks for he responses guys.To clarify things a little I already have two PCs a Pentium 500 and an AMD K6 233 running 98se that will run just about any DOS game I want.But naturally my newest most powerful PC is also the one that is in the most comfortable place to play games .It also has the largest HD and I thought it would be nice to have all my games in one place.I'm not afraid of disk partitioning or multi booting just looking for the easy way out I guess.

[edchambers]

I am not entirely sure you can go back once in NTFS

Just in case anyone is wondering a 98se "start up disk" will let you delete any type of partition I've seen including Linux and NTFS using FDISK and reformat in FAT16 or FAT32 depending on the size of the drive.

[ThePythonicCow]

My favorite disk partition tool is Paragon's "Partition Manager", at partition-manager.com, or 7tools.com. I had used "Partition Magic" for years, but it grew quirky in some corner cases (perhaps it's better, now that Symantec bought Powerquest, I don't know). So a year or two ago, I went scouting for a more solid equivalent, downloaded "Partition Manager", and have been quite happy with it since.

It will let you convert NTFS to FAT32 in place, which the native Microsoft tools don't support. I still use some FAT32 partitions, mostly because the read/write access to them from Linux, which I dual boot, has been more mature than for NTFS. One also needs FAT for Windows 98 or prior access (not even FAT32 works with Windows 95 or prior),

Partition Manager includes recovery disk and a boot manager for dual booting. Though I've gone to Terabyte's BootIt Next Generation for my multiple boot needs - it's seriously good for that, if you don't need hand holding documentation. Be sure to read its documentation however, as it can be a loaded M16 in the wrong hands. BootIt includes some partition editing and some partition imaging support, though I find Partition Manager more complete for the former, and Symantec's Norton Ghost for the later. If you are going to try using Ghost, see also The Radified Guide to Norton Ghost.

I've used just about every boot manager ever made, both Windows and Linux based. BootIt is the best for clearly implementing the full possible feature set, and having a reasonably straight forward, no artificial limits, user interface to access it all. It's been solid as a rock so far. Other than the problem that the documentation reads more like source code, it's the best.

Other partition managers include Partition Commander from V Communications, and the Ranish Partition Manager. I used Partition Commander for a little while a few years ago; don't recall why it didn't stick with me. I haven't used the Ranish Partition Manager, but have heard good things about it. And of course there's always fdisk, which some oldtimers swear by. However, I find that the gui interfaces really help me avoid screwups here, and so avoid fdisk unless cornered. I almost always keep a small windows partition at the front of my disks, just to hold my preferred partition manager, dual booting and imaging tools. This is one of the areas where I don't find the Linux tools competitive yet, along with Quicken, TaxCut and my dear copy of the ancient Lotus Improv spreadsheet program.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

you may desire to repartition your hard drive to make room for a separate FAT32 drive space.

Excellent suggestion. Make a Fat32 partition and load the DOS programs there. It should be a minimally invasive procedure if you use Partition Magic to do the job. Though I'm not sure if PM would do NTFS to FAT32 re-partitioning.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

...a 98se "start up disk" will let you delete any type of partition I've seen

I tried that some time ago on a friend's PC that had NT 4.0 on it (from eBay) and fdisk wouldn't do it. I had to use a small MS utility called "delpart.exe" to do it.

Delpart, by the way, is a great tool. It doesn't give a crap about anything. If you want it deleted, it deletes it and then you're ready for fdisk.

[edchambers]

I tried that some time ago on a friend's PC that had NT 4.0 on it (from eBay) and fdisk wouldn't do it.

Hmm, are we talking about the same "start up" disk? I'm talking about the one 98se prompts you to make during install.I know some OEM installs either run entirely from CD or come with a start up disk that may or may not be the same.I have in fact deleted NTFS and Linux partitions with FDISK.FDISK will also get rid of non DOS boot loaders in the MBR with the command fdisk /mbr.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

Hmm, are we talking about the same "start up" disk?

Duinno. The one I used is one that was created via 98se after the install. Not during.

The problem I had was that when I used fdisk to delete a partition, it said the NTFS partition contained extended partitons and they needed to be deleted first. I then tried that but when I selected that option it said there were no extended partitons. So I was in a Catch-22 sort of situation. I guess fdisk won't delete extended partitions unless they are part of the Primary partition. So I ran the delpart.exe and that did the trick.

I know fdisk is a good utility for deleting and manipulating but sometimes it gets snippy about it. So delpart is a good workaround. And it's only 124 Kb in size so you can place it on any startup disk for later use.

[edchambers]

And of course there's always fdisk, which some oldtimers swear by. I tend to use FDISK not because I like it so much as I understand it.You seem to have a pretty good working knowledge of aftermarket partitioners and boot loaders maybe you could answer a couple of questions for me.I notice most of the ones you mention are demos,what happens if you don't purchase them?Do they stop working?To multi boot Microsoft OSs and use XPs boot menu they require you to install them in chronological order on seperate volumes, will a bootmanager get around this and let me install 98se or DOS after XP?

[edchambers]

The problem I had was that when I used fdisk to delete a partition, it said the NTFS partition contained extended partitions and they needed to be deleted first. I can see where that could be a problem, FDISK doesn't recognize NTFS and just calls them "non DOS" partitions if you had non dos partitions within non dos partitions that could be a problem.The strangest thing is the wide variety of 98se start up disks.I have one for my HP that will only work on my HP it's a CD, you put the CD and boot it up make a selection, click once with a mouse and it does everything else.I have another older version that prompts you to make a "start up" disk.This disk is actually quite useful it creates a ramdisk and loads a bunch DOS utilities into it, it also loads a good generic CD driver.Then I have one that was obviously manufactured, it doesn't do much of anything except allow you to start the 98se CD.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

The strangest thing is the wide variety of 98se start up disks.

Yes, it is odd to see so many variations.

The one I've had the best luck with, no matter what the platform, is the one I got from bootdisk.com.

[ThePythonicCow]

what happens if you don't purchase them

I don't know - haven't been down that path recently.

will a bootmanager ... let me install 98se or DOS after XP?

Yes - but it gets a little complicated. The TeraByte Unlimited Knowledge Base covers many such scenarios. The sequence of partition hiding and rebooting operations can be tricky, and there are numerous twisted paths through the maze. The "boot next" options in BootIt give one alternatives when doing such installs that other boot managers can't touch. I've only begun to exlore this area.

[ThePythonicCow]

How do I install Windows® 98/Me after I've installed XP?

Here's a decent explanation of one way to do this: How do I install Windows® 98/Me after I've installed XP? (without 3rd party software). It does things the hard way, without using other software.

And here's a decent explanation of some of the technical issues involved: Understanding MultiBooting.