Yeah, but what I mean is that I've never heard of a horse foundering without an associated episode of colic, either before or during. I've also never had anybody give me a realy good layman's description of what actually causes founder, have you? I think it has something to do with having too much food in stomach, which allows undigested food to pass on to the small bowel where it causes some kind of problem that I can't remember which results in too much of something getting into the blood which causes swelling of the laminae in the hooves which cuts off the circulation to them and eventually kills them causing them to allow the bones in the hoof to rotate or drop. Now I may be totally wrong about all that, but that's as close as I can get to it off the top of my head. Feel free to jump in there at any time and correct me.