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To: Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; D Edmund Joaquin
Funny thing, you keep telling me I'm wrong with no evidence to rebut why you think so. You also continue to fantasize about my familial relationships, which frankly is starting to disturb me. My relationship with my teens has never been better, regardless of what you wish. I also notice that you yell alot.

Now, in the true spirit (no pun intended) of FR, will you please provide scriptural rebuttal to my arguments ?

624 posted on 10/11/2004 8:36:11 AM PDT by UsnDadof8 (The groundswell of public opinion is about to hit John Kerry. And it won't be pretty)
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To: UsnDadof8

MORE THAN SUFFICIENT MATERIAL IN HERE:

BK:

YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHECY Prophetic Gifts in Ministry Today by

EARNEST B GENTILE with Forward by Peter Wagner

He documents, BTW, the Old Testament true prophets who missed it and were not stoned.

I doubt seriously your relationships with your kids are as intimate from their standpoint as you construe them to be. I don't trust your perceptions or your judgment in such matters at all. But, I suspect they might be able to teach you enough about listenig WERE YOU TO DECIDE TO BE TEACHABLE that you might even learn to hear God!

Interesting that you have great fun stealing a thread in violation of forum rules. But when someone annoys you in an area dear to your heart and purposes, then THEY are beyond the pale. Great double standard.

QUIT STEALING THIS THREAD.


629 posted on 10/11/2004 8:41:09 AM PDT by Quix (PRAYERS 4 PRES, FAMILY, ADVISORS N OUR REPUBLIC IN OCT MAY BE VITALLY CRUCIAL)
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To: UsnDadof8; Dr. Eckleburg; D Edmund Joaquin; All
3. 2 Corinthians 12:12 (Niv)

The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance,

Written in this way, the text does seem to say that signs and wonders authenticate the apostles. Jack Deere, however, casts reasonable doubt:

This translation is inaccurate. A literal translation is, "The signs of an apostle were performed among you in all endurance with signs and wonders and miracles." In this passage Paul uses "sign" (Greek semeion ) in two different ways. The first use of "sign" in the phrase "signs of an apostle" cannot refer to miracles, for then Paul would be saying that "the miracles of an apostle were done among you with signs and wonders and miracles." What would be the point of such a statement? Paul does not say that "the [end p] 235 signs of an apostle" are miracles, but rather that "the signs of an apostle" are accompanied by signs, wonders and miracles. If Paul had meant that the signs of his apostleship were signs and wonders and miracles, then he would have used a different construction in the Greek language. 12

The vindications of Paul's apostleship were not his miracles but his suffering, his blameless life, his endless care of the churches and the many conversions among those to whom he preached (2 Corinthians 6:3-10; 11:22-33). The miracles authenticated not himself but the message he preached.

4. Ephesians 2:20

[The church] having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone.

Farnell says, "Once that foundation had been laid by those in the first century who possessed the gifts of apostleship and prophecy no further need to relay the foundation by subsequent generations is implied.” 13 The early apostles and prophets certainly set a solid theological foundation that does not need to be laid again. (We do not, for example, need to have the Scripture reinvented.) The LB says, "What a foundation you stand on now: the apostles and prophets."

The original theological and doctrinal foundation of the Christian Church was given by revelation and written through inspiration by the first-century apostles and prophets. Most commentators would agree. This was special and enduring revelation for the Church of all time.

The activity of the apostles and prophets, however, was broader in the early Church than writing the canon of Scripture There were other apostles in the early Church in addition to the original Twelve, and there were prophets who wrote no Scripture. All these functioned according to the objective mentioned in Ephesians 4:11-13, the perfecting or maturing of the Church “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (verse 13, Kjv). The principle of apostles and Prophets working together to establish the Church is illustrated in the appointment of a team of apostles, Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14: 4). (Acts 14:14) , and Judas and Silas (Acts 15:22, 32), to bring the doctrinal verdict of the Jerusalem Council to the Gentile churches.

The theological foundation is truly set in place, but the growing, maturing body of Christ must have the ongoing fivefold ministries mentioned in this text to maintain the spirit and correctness of what was instituted in the first century. Ephesians was written at that time in history, but its spiritual agenda was expected to continue uninterrupted until the coming of Christ, which necessitated the continuation of those five ministries to hold, guide and govern the Church.

I cannot believe, after reading the clear operating procedure given for the Church in Ephesians 4:11-13, that Farnell is right when he says: "The gift of prophecy played a vital role in the foundational aspects of the church. With the church firmly established through the ministry of the first-century apostles and New Testament prophets, prophecy passed from the scene." 14 Are we to pay no heed to the essential, supernatural teachings of the early Church? Are we to write off the ministries and gifts that made the early Church great? God forbid!

5. Revelation 22:18-19

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them. God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Robert L. Thomas, a strong cessationist, explains his viewpoint of these verses: "With the completion of the last book of the New Testament, the gift of prophecy became obsolete.... Since the Book of Revelation covers events occurring from the time John wrote it until the eternal state, any alleged prophecy subsequent to the book of Revelation is counterfeit." 15

Prophecies given in first-century churches were never intended to be an addition to the Scripture. A prophetic utterance bringing comfort to a band of persecuted Christians was in no danger of replacing, superseding or being added to the Bible. Prophecy received by Timothy with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery was not equated with Scripture. Rather, these two examples illustrate the "now word" of encouragement inspired by the Spirit to help God's people at a specific time and place.

Let me use a personal illustration. My second daughter, Debbie, was soon to move with her family from San Jose, where we all lived, to another city in northern California. She wanted to be a teacher but had no credentials or even a college degree to meet the standards. Then David Schoch, a prophet of God, visited our church for prophetic presbytery meetings and told her with no explanation that she need not worry about having a teaching certificate. After moving, Debbie enrolled her children in the large Christian school there. The fascinating story is too long to tell here, but suffice it to say she did, in fact, become a very popular sixth-grade teacher, and then a third-grade teacher in that school. This unusual story is not meant to excuse a lack of education or to advocate hiring teachers without credentials, but to show that even in highly structured and standardized settings, it is possible for God to make exceptions for those qualified by Him. This remarkably gifted teacher had been given a prophetic word that not only gave her a glimpse of a future possibility, but it released in her the faith that enabled God to bring it to pass.

I do not put this prophetic word on a par with the eternal logos of God, of course, but affirm that the simple little prophecy was one hundred percent accurate and a remarkable assurance to Debbie.

Prophecy in the Church does not add to the Scripture but complements it and encourages the people. Three simple proofs confirm this:

• Prophecy is included in the listings of spiritual gifts in 1 Cor- inthians 12-14, indicating it would be part of the standard operation in a local church.
• Prophecy occurred in at least fourteen of the local churches mentioned in the New Testament (see chapter 10). "The charismata were present in every geographical area in which the church was found This obvious noncanonical use of prophecy in the ancient churches set a standard for the entire Church age and includes the churches of today.
• Three references in the New Testament about "judging" prophecy (see chapters 20 and 21) clearly indicate that prophecy in the churches did not compete with the canon of Scripture, either then or now.

Answer 2: Prophecy Complements Scripture

Cessationism assumes that the only purpose of biblical prophecy was to supply us with a "canonized" Scripture. Now, with the full canon given, we must assume prophecy is no longer needed. Some also feel that to affirm prophecy for today compromises the unique authority of the Bible, causing a shift from an objective confidence in Scripture to unreliable (or even deceptive) subjective experience.

Proponents of this view misunderstand the nature of prophecy that functioned in the early churches. Much prophesying took place to aid in daily living on a personal and practical level. (We discussed this thoroughly in chapter 10, so my comments here will be limited.) I agree with Michael Harper: "In the New Testament sense prophecy is concerned mainly with the domestic life of the Church." 17

The text of both Testaments was inspired prophetically by God's Spirit. In addition, a unique, common prophetic ministry was taught and experienced in the New Testament that, because of possible fallibility, required testing and approval. Such prophecy, properly handled, is not just subjective but wonderfully edifying to the church body. Although it can be one hundred percent accurate, it is not considered canonical.

Later I will emphasize that prophecy, along with every other spiritual manifestation, is subject to and evaluated by the supreme standard: the canonized Scripture given by divine revelation to the prophets and apostles. The Bible text is exalted over local prophecy, which can never substitute for or add to apostolic doctrine and Scripture.

Personally, I do not want my theology to depend on experience rather than Scripture. The thought that a spiritual experience can alone validate itself is repugnant to me. Certainly personal experience is important, but prophecy is safeguarded by the sanctified biblical thinking of the rest of the local church—and above all by the written Word of God.

[QX commentary: There is, though a bit of a fallacy in trying to distinguish between “experience” based theology vs “Bible based” theology. There could be NO AWARENESS OF EVEN THE EXISTENCE of THE BIBLE APART FROM OUR EXPERIENCE with the ink on pages. The tendency is to say that oh, well, our experience with Scripture is much less likely to be flawed than our experience with hearing God directly. NOT NECESSARILY as centuries of error, heresy ebbing and flowing have demonstrated rather extensively.

Also, prophecies etc. are to be judged by the local Body of Christ—a local congregation or a subgroup thereof. This is certainly less hefty than the group which decided on The Canon. But the process is quite similar, if not identical. A group of believers met in approximately 300 AD and determined what constituted the Canon.

Now, if Cessationists are to be believed, these people DID NOT have any HOLY SPIRIT INFLUENCE in deciding what the Canon was—WHAT A CRAZY NOTION THAT IS! But the Cessationists on this thread have insisted that Holy Spirit quit communicating (A) at Christ’s Resurrection—the silliest notion expressed hereon. Or, (B) that Holy Spirit quit communicating when John The Beloved put the last character in the last word of the last sentence in the last chapter of Revelation. WELL, NOW, IF Holy Spirit quit communicating to man at those times, THE LOVELY GROUP MEETING IN 300 AD to determine what the Canon constituted must have been operating totally in the flesh. Yet we are to believe that THEY, OPERATING TOTALLY IN THE FLESH, GAVE US THE PERFECTION spoken of in I Corinthians? It’s hard to imagine a sillier notion about Scripture than that.]

Answer 3: Historical Evidence Exists for Miraculous Gifts

This view has already been argued successfully elsewhere, 18 so I will content myself with continuing to scatter convincing illustrations of prophecy throughout this book as we proceed, and let Jack Deere strike forcefully at the heart of the cessationist argument:

There is one basic reason why Bible-believing Christians do not believe in the miraculous gifts of the Spirit today. It is simply this: they have not seen them. Their

tradition,

of course, supports their lack of belief, but their tradition would have no chance of success if it were not coupled with their lack of experience of the miraculous. . . No cessationist writer that I am aware of tries to make his case on Scripture alone. All of these writers appeal both to Scripture and to either present or past history to support their case. It often goes unnoticed that this appeal to history, either past or present, is actually an argument from experience, or better, an argument from the lack of experience. 19

Answer 4: Proper Use Invalidates Misuse

Prophecy is sometimes misused, and the approach of a new millennium causes more doomsday prophets to arise. 20 But I like this positive attitude by Joseph Hogan: "As soon as we speak of prophets, people are immediately worried about false prophets. On the contrary, it seems to me that we should pray for prophecy! The problem now is an absence of prophets. It seems that the Holy Spirit is raising up prophets in our midst. "We should be attentive. The community can judge the worth of prophecy after it happens, but let it happen first." 21

Every thoughtful, responsible leader I know who believes in the gifts of the Spirit for today also believes that prophecy should be evaluated, tested and examined. 22 This is the strength and safeguard of the Church as false prophets proliferate in these last days. Let's reclaim the vibrant, positive belief in spiritual gifts and their operation that the early Christians had! They were confident that the same God who gave gifts to His children would give them adequate insight to exercise them. Gordon Fee wisely counsels that "the antidote for abuse is proper use." 23

A Proper Perspective

It is encouraging to see material now appearing that treats spiritual gifts in a personal, positive way. A noticeable handicap that has confronted commentators in the past has been a lack of practical, personal experience. William Barclay, the brilliant Scottish Presbyterian scholar, confessed while commenting on prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14: "This chapter is very difficult to understand because it deals with a phenomenon which, for most of us, is outside our experience." 24 Dedicated scholarship will miss or overlook certain insights when denied the experience of the activity being discussed. Mark Cartledge brings out this very point in a thought-provoking article for Themelios:

Usually the interpreter's understanding of what the NT has to say influences how the contemporary phenomenon is perceived. With the NT as a starting point, it is possible to beg the question with respect to contemporary experience. This is the danger that all interpreters face, and could succumb to. The lack of academic material inevitably contributes to this problem. The material which scholars present as relating to modern experience is often the better quality of popular literature, but nevertheless the selection is often small and possibly unrepresentative. If there is a central weakness in the scholarship considering this question, it lies on the contemporary side, in contrast to their NT discussion. 25

My participation in prophetic activity during the past fifty years has been both joyful and educational. We do need the scholar's insight of the biblical text, but we must also have meaningful contemporary experience and pastoral application. Let's be wary of the dangers yet appreciative of the blessings, always watching that we do not push the experience beyond reasonable scriptural application. But please, do not shut the church doors on prophecy!

Prophecy did continue after the first apostles passed from the scene, but by approximately A.D. 260 the ominous force of institutionalization had snuffed out the prophetic flame in the mainline Church. How and why did this happen? Is it really necessary to sacrifice the prophetic dimension to ecclesiastical structure as a church becomes more formalized? This is our subject in the next chapter.

REFLECTIONS

C. S. Lewis, in his Screwtape Letters, once said that "there are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about... devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them." We might say something similar to Christians today on the subject of claims to revelations from God: one is to disbelieve any such thing, while the other is to believe all such claims without exercising proper discernment. 26

David Pytches

I have been enormously heartened by the fact that there are thousands of people who are sick of narrowness and churchiness, and who long for the fresh air of the New Testament. I am greatly encouraged too by the obvious fact that thousands of people deplore the spiritual loss that the church has plainly sustained since the days of Pentecost. There is I find a hunger—sometimes almost a desperate hunger to regain the shining certainties and revel in the freedom and power of the new-born church. ... I am firmly of the opinion that so great is the longing for New Testament Christianity that it will be along this line that true spiritual revival will come. 27

J. B. Phillips

. . . Our theologizing must stop paying mere lip service to the Spirit and recognize his crucial role in Pauline theology; and it means that the church must risk freeing the Spirit from being boxed into the creed and getting him back into the experienced life of the believer and the believing community. 28 Gordon Fee

The prophetic gifts are not just an optional novelty for the super-spiritual; they are essential tools for effective functioning in pastoral, teaching, evangelistic or apostolic ministry. 29

Rick Joyner

The gift of Prophecy is not to be discouraged, but is to be "earnestly desired." Paul makes it clear that the Corinthian problem ... was not charismatic excuses, but misdirection and misuse of God's grace. Paul did not take either of the two extremes used in coping with this problem common today: (1) to suggest that the manifestation of certain gifts was evidence of high spiritual status or (2) to squelch all manifestations of the Spirit—to the contrary, he actually encouraged them. 30

Jon Ruthven

669 posted on 10/11/2004 8:56:06 PM PDT by Quix (PRAYERS 4 PRES, FAMILY, ADVISORS N OUR REPUBLIC IN OCT MAY BE VITALLY CRUCIAL)
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