Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show 2004

2/10/04

[anniegetyourgun]

YOUR THOUGHTS, COMMENTS, PICTURES ON AMERICA'S DOG SHOW HERE!

Thread from first night here.

Your hosts on USA Network:

[anniegetyourgun]

You sure did pick him - congrats~!

[the OlLine Rebel]

It is up to the KC if they wish to award money; generally, they don't and it's just trophies, plates, rosettes (standard fare at any show).

[the OlLine Rebel]

OK, I forgot about the show again. Then I recalled, as usual, on Tues nite (while at the gym), and when I got home forgot again. Luckily, a friend mentioned it when calling me - and best of all, I didn't miss the Herding group. ;-) Had to see my GSD - and my other preferred dogs. It wasn't Dallas this year, but she wasn't too bad (not as good as Dallas, IMO). Too bad she only got 3rd to the Corgi, but then, I'm ambivalent about "American Shepherds", so in some ways I'm glad they don't win!

I am pleased 2 rare breeds won groups - the Ibizan and the Sussex. It's so obvious most of the time, that judges can't really possibly know that much about all the breeds, and I think they avoid the rares cuz they don't really know and have almost zilch experience (exactly cuz they're rare!). So conversely, I'm not surprised all-too-common breeds very frequently win the top spots - the Goldens, the Poodles, the Pekes, and yes, the GSDs (altho not as much at all-breed). Anyway, I was glad the mold was broken a bit last nite.

[the OlLine Rebel]

I bet you're talking Dallas ie., Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes, who did indeed win the so-called champ's last year as I recall (I don't think he ever won Westminster - I think the only GSD that managed to win Westminster was Manhattan - of course, rite after I dropped off the show radar. Nice, but rumored to have hip problems.). He is a nice dog, albeit not perfect, being an AKC dog. ;-) Yes, too many of them cannot *walk* - look at the bitch last nite. She clearly has more sloppy movement than Dallas.

I prefer the Euro dogs, too, altho I still think they too, have become bitten by a popularity bug as far as how the GSD should be built (roach backs, too big and bulky - GSDs should be "medium" sized, compared to the Newfie-type dogs they're creating). Believe me, neither side is at all like their ancestors 100 years ago, or even 50!

[CholeraJoe]

I thought of you when they showed the collies. I can't stand the little hyperactive dust mops in the toy group. Real dogs weigh more than 60 lbs and drool alot.

[secret garden]

Aw gee...I love big dogs. I have little tolerance for the feather duster yip yips, and that includes some Shelties.

[the OlLine Rebel]

Just about every dog named after a TB filly is called Genuine Risk - winner of the Derby and runner-up in the Preak and Belmont. In fact, 1 of the ROM dams in GSDs themselves is also a "Genuine Risk" name - as well as some other horses on those lists. Sunday Silence - Ruffian - Foolish Pleasure was a BIG 1 for some reason when I hung around - I remember a Collie w/that name, amongst others. (I'm a racing nut, too. Was glad to see Charlsie Cantey - and the films of Gallant Fox and Omaha last nite!)

[HairOfTheDog]

They have gotten bigger in Schutzhund circles.... I have noticed that. I know someone who imports/breeds magnificent creatures... would love to have one someday.... his puppies have enormous price tags!

[Indy Pendance]

Can you explain the difference when showing American German Shepherds as compared to German German Shepherds? I know that some dogs are bought based upon if they come from German stock, but, in the shows, is there a difference?

[Indy Pendance]

So, you're seeing it too. Check out my post 119 and post 137.

[HairOfTheDog]

When you talked at first of German Shepherds getting too big I feel a little guilty, because my friend who is a Schutzhund and police dog trainer is sure breeding them big, and I think his dogs are beautiful.

But I understand from you that not everyone is pleased with this trend, and I will consider myself reformed.... You see, I have the same complaint about trends in Labradors. The "show labrador" and the "field labrador" have unfortunately become two very different dogs and I don't like it. The field trial people are breeding them way too big and clunky. Here is an example. A friend's dog on the left, and my Logan on the right. ~Logan~ was actually a tad on the big side according to standard at 25 inches and 85 pounds. But take a look at the field-bred dog. Only remotely the same breed.

[the OlLine Rebel]

http://www.realgsd.info/ These people really don’t like American dogs

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/2788/menu.htm Look at “German Shepherd Pages”

Look at the pix long enough and you mite start seeing the difference. I can spot'em a mile away - and I'm not very "experienced" at all! (I was in the dog thing as a teen - dropped out due to college and my dog wasn't "good enough" anyway. My dog then was half American/half Euro working lines - a gorgeous dog she ended up, "only" 60 lbs - and she could *walk* and gait any way gracefully like a deer "on her toes". The other year finally looked for a new dog; she is all German lines, same build, same medium size, handsome face - but her parents were bigger. She is also a wimp, incidentally, unlike my "half-breed".)

Euro dogs don't have a chance in AKC. Each side chose what type it likes and says the other is too-too...whatever; I'm convinced there is little change in the standards from 50 years ago. It's just like the Constitution - just *ignore* it, and then tell people you're conforming to it enough, they believe it, and perpetuate the same nonsense forever more. I think both "sides" are guilty of this. Trust me, these dogs are nothing like they should be; I'd say the GSDs reached their peak from the '30s-'50s. I swear it's like the people deeply involved w/the game in breeding and showing as their livelihoods or obsessions decided what they liked, and being the powers in the breed, made that the "ideal" dog and popular. Doesn't mean it truly conforms to the standard, or is at all capable of (in this case) herding all day or doing police work.

Don't get me going!

[the OlLine Rebel]

It's my understanding (and indeed, mostly my experience) that Labs are mostly on the "medium" side. I don't know the history, but I'd trust mostly what happened in the primeval days when the breed was really coalescing. What was it like then? Is there an explanation? I can't see why Labs would be real big, but that's just my guess. I wouldn't think you'd want a real big dog running thru brush to retrieve an already dead duck!

I also had an old man I worked w/ - great guy - who constantly referred proudly to his 110-lb Collie! There's no way in hell a Collie was supposed to be that huge! Neither any shepherd dog - they'd be too "clunky" where they're supposed to be agile and nimble. (I should clarify too - most bigger are bigger all-around - huge frame, large bones, etc. American Shepherds to me are mostly guilty of being too tall - but are skinny/narrow as hell for the most part and going the way of the Irish Setter.)

[the OlLine Rebel]

I guess I should qualify my opinions on size. Yes, I do think many dogs (esp in GSD) are too big - but then, if they have truly good conformation, I'd overlook the size for now and hope to get smaller dogs later and not cut out a dog purely for oversize.

[HairOfTheDog]

The original function of the Labrador was a medium sized gentleman's hunter (males 75-80 pounds and 22-24 inches) that was strong and big boned, but short coupled and compact enough to either share a small duck blind all day or share room in a boat... and small enough that the hunter could pull him back in the boat wet.

I don't think there is a lot of advantage in the overly large dogs they are now breeding. Some think bigger is stronger and better.

[Indy Pendance]

I have 2 GSD's. Both look like the German variety. Our older dog (she's 11 now) was a show dog, who wasn't 'good enough', and we found her at a shelter. She looks similar to this (from the link you provided):

but that's probably why she was a 'show' reject, not good enough in that respect. We're her fourth home, had her for 3 years now. She's not going anywhere. She looks very 'German'. She's about 85-90 pounds, but slightly overweight due to arthritis. We try to exercise her as much as possible. In winter, she's a little heavier. What's sad is, I don't think she was ever taught to play.

Our younger dog, who's 8, is all lean and muscle. She's about 75 pounds, like you said, she does *walk* and gait any way gracefully like a deer "on her toes". I can really see the difference in the photos you provided. Thanks a bunch. I love our dogs, they are fantastic!

[HairOfTheDog]

This is my friend competing at a GSDCA-WDA National Show with his best dog.

Take a look at his site and see if he is part of the problem-as-you-see-it or not! Kraftwerk K9 Kamp : Breeder and Importer of Competitive Working Dogs since 1986

[anniegetyourgun]

Me too!

[the OlLine Rebel]

The dog you posted is a German-show type (altho this 1 has only a slight roach in the back - most have rather grotesque, Greyhound-like roaches!) They are a pretty nice type, overall, and sometimes you don't get much roach no matter what. (My current dog is more or less Euro show lines, but she has little to no roaching.)

This Benji http://www.beechhillgermanshepherddogs.com/pages/1/index.htm was the grandsire of my beloved departed "half-breed" - he was a sweetie and a beautiful dog, 1 of the top BIS dogs early '80s. The handler was my dog's breeder - he was very famous at the time. His wife leased a German working-type bitch (she was SchHIII - rare for a female!) for this breeding to 1 of Benji's top sons. I can't tell you enough about my beloved Shana (actually pronounced like "Shanna"). She looked alot like her dam in type and face (albeit a lovelier face) - and alot more like the dogs that could win in the '40s!

Many of us note there is generally a difference between "specialty" and "all-breed" GSDs, too - Benji was all-breed. I think the all-breed is better; probably the thinking is less myopic than the specialty nuts. Personally, I think the 2 general types, of the best examples, should be bred together to bring back the real Shepherd!

(See how yappy I get?)

[the OlLine Rebel]

Wow, your friend is of Kraftwerk? That's pretty famous from what I gather.

I like alot of his dogs (esp. the bitches) - altho I can't quite tell what the size is. From your show pix, the dog doesn't look too tall, anyway. I wonder if they use alot of "working" lines as opposed to "show"? I don't see overmuch roachbacks or sagging heads.