5,000 pastors cheer Mel Gibson's 'Passion'

Washington Times ^ | 1/22/04 | Julia Duin

[ZULU]

"Greek was the lingua franca of the Empire. "

Ridiculous. The Roman upper classes and educated elements in the eastern part of the Empire spoke Greek, but the Lingua Franca of the Empire was Latin. All official business was written in Latin, and the varioous subject people continued to speak their own language for come time afer Romanization. Certainly the Jews who resisted Romanization more vigorously than most, continued to speak Aramaic.


Certainly, Legionaries were trained in Latin and few, if any were Greek. Most were from the western part of the Empire, Italy, and parts of Europe like Gaul.

[prairiebreeze]

Participants had to sign confidentiality statements to enter, with an exception for pastors wishing to speak in support of the movie.

This was not required of those who saw it in my group. Otherwise I couldn't have written my post...

Prairie

[Terabitten]

Church groups nationwide have put in large ticket orders to see the movie, despite the graphic violence surrounding the crucifixion.

The "graphic violence surrounding the crucifixion" is a huge part of our identity as Christians. I personally wear an emblem of a two thousand year old torture and execution device around my neck, as millions of other Christians do. The modern equivalent of a cross necklace might be a little golden electric chair, or a gallows.

To deny the violence and agony, the offense of the cross is to truly not understand that He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquity, and that by His stripes we are healed.

[ConservativeDude]

5,000 pastors?

WOW...that is a significant number.

[montag813]

Speaking for about 15 minutes, he asked the assembly to pray and promised that the film "will change your heart." Mr. Gibson said he showed it to one agnostic friend, "and the next day, he read all four of the Gospels."

Good, hopefully this will cut into interest in the Quran, sales of which have exploded since 9/11.

[montag813]

None of the major studios wanted to distribute "The Passion"? I wonder what they're afraid of. That it's too true to the Gospels?

"The Passion" will one day be the highest-grossing film in history. It will take time. Every Easter this film will be shown all over the world for the next 100 years.

[ConservativeDude]

this is a good post.

i've seen the movie and i've heard mel gibson discuss it.

he acknowledges that greek might have been spoken where they used latin...it's a close call...none of us were there. what we know for sure is that it wasn't english. personally, i think the sort of street blending of latin/greek/aramic is most likely. dogmatism on the point is well pointless.

obviously there is artistic license with the film. but nothing contradicts the basic script which is the gospel text, i believe most specifically, the gospel of john. just as john tells us, there are a lot of things that jesus did that aren't told. likewise the media of film requires that the maker imagine. this is nothing new. rembrandt did it, bach did it, every christian artist must do same.

i'm not sure if the number of lashes comported with the number set forth in roman law. but i don't think it is beyond the pale of literary license to posit that those responsible for the lashing might have over-reached...you must keep in mind that this was a spiritual event, not a political one. is it really unthinkable that those who scourged the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the entire world might have gone a little over the top???

it is naive to think that - in light of what we know about human nature - just because the law said only ten lashes before a crucifixion - that somehow the sickos resonsible for the lashing stuck to the law. good grief. don't forget that paul was a roman citizen and they roughed him up a bit, didn't they? i am thinking that these romans didn't always do things by the book. is that so far-fetched???

the point for gibson is that he not contradict scripture. i am confident that he has not.

the movie is a brilliant and profound work of Christian art.

i hope everyone sees it.

[ConservativeDude]

"If the movie is 90% faithful to the details and 100% faithful to the Message I'll be ecstatic."

i'll personally guaranty this.

[evets]

Yeah, but what did the Pope think about it?

[FormerLib]

The title papa (pope - father), became exclusive to the bishop of Rome during the 4th century.

Except for the Pope of Alexandria, of course.

And I knew a large Greek family with the name (approx.) of Papaconstantinopoulos, which translates to "the Pope of Constantinople", but they used "Pappas" for business reasons.

[freebilly]

don't forget that paul was a roman citizen and they roughed him up a bit, didn't they?

Exactly, and he used his Roman citizenship to his benefit, too, to avoid being scourged. With non-citizens it was a different matter.

[ConservativeDude]

"With non-citizens it was a different matter."

And, I would be willing to wager, ESPECIALLY with those troublesome, strange backward people in Palestine...(geez, talk about a career-ending outpost. Sort of like becoming Ambassador to some African nation.)

It is clear to me from the Gospel text that the Romans despised the Jews, and vice versa. From a political viewpoint, the Romans deeply desired to embarrass and discourage the Jews by killing their "king" (Are you the King of the Jews?). The needed to show who was in charge.

I forget who made the point earlier, but the reference in Carthage is apt.

Of course this line of inquiry also misses the point of the gospels and of the film. The crucifixion was a theologicla event, not a political one. To talk about anyone putting the Lamb of God on the cross except for yours truly is a non sequitur.

[freebilly]

the movie is a brilliant and profound work of Christian art.

i hope everyone sees it.

I'm already promoting it to my non-Christian friends and family members. I think some minds and hearts might be ready to chabge....

[freebilly]

To talk about anyone putting the Lamb of God on the cross except for yours truly is a non sequitur.

That's the deal. I've sometimes told people that the words of Christ only apply to one person-- the one inside my skin....

[AD from SpringBay]

None of the major studios wanted to distribute "The Passion"? I wonder what they're afraid of.

Remember boys and girls - in Liberalwood making movies the are accurate with the Bible is bad. Everything else is ok.

[DallasMike]

Except for the Pope of Alexandria, of course.

You're correct. Had Alexandria not fallen it is entirely possible that the Vatican would be there and not in Rome. Either that or we would have 3 "denominations" that each claimed primacy.

[Wallace T.]

Greek was the lingua franca of the Eastern Roman Empire, as it had been in this area since the time of Alexander the Great. However, its usage was probably similar to that of English in India: the language of international commerce and, under the British Raj, the law. The average Indian usually knows little, if any, English, and ordinarily converses in Hindi or one of the other languages of the subcontinent. From certain contexts, for example, Jesus' conversation with the Roman captain who wanted his child healed, it is probable that Christ spoke koine Greek. However, this does not mean that His apostles necessarily spoke the language during the time of His ministry, though in later life, Peter, John, and James had learned it, as evidenced by their epistles. Nor is it necessarily true that all Jesus' opponents knew Greek, particularly the Pharisees, who were zealous in their preservation of Jewish law and custom. Like the Gaelic revivalists of the last century in Ireland, they probably supported the use of their nation's ancient language in opposition to the tongue of the foreign occupiers.

The sign written on Jesus' cross, "King of the Jews," was written in Latin, Greek, and Aramaic. It is therefore evident that Latin must have had some degree of circulation in 1st Century Israel. The use of Greek by the Roman elite was not unlike the use of French by the upper classes in England, Germany, Poland, and Russia in the 17th, 18th, and 19th Centuries. Having the ability to speak in French helped the aristocracy and the haute bourgeoisie of these northern nations distinguish themselves from their less cultured countrymen. It also encouraged a type of transnational society of noble or wealthy people throughout Europe with its own language, a secular version of the transnational character of the medieval Catholic Church.

Thus, a Roman governor may communicate with a Jewish high priest in koine Greek, as Pilate probably did with Caiphas. However, when that governor talked with military officers and particularly the lower ranks, he would have reverted to his native tongue, much as a member of the Russian aristocracy would have done. The New Testament (Acts 10:1) makes reference to the "Italian Regiment." As another poster alluded to in his post, one Roman legion in Israel in Jesus' time was drawn from Spain. Keep in mind that the Romans used their native Latin, and not Greek, in their dealings in Western and Central Europe. (Their "vulgar Latin" was the ancestor of Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, and Romanian.) Thus, the legionaries, if they knew any tongue other than their native Gallo-Iberian, would have spoken Latin. Their commanders, and even the governor, would have addressed them in that language as a result.

Gibson's guesses about language usage at the time of Christ's Crucifixion are probably not too far off the mark.

[DallasMike]

he acknowledges that greek might have been spoken where they used latin...it's a close call...none of us were there. what we know for sure is that it wasn't english. personally, i think the sort of street blending of latin/greek/aramic is most likely. dogmatism on the point is well pointless.

Add to that the fact that, according to Eversheim and others, the Roman soldiers occupying Israel often hailed from the regions of modern-day Syria and Turkey rather than from the Italian peninsula. If Mr. Gibson had consulted me (which he somehow neglected to do -- can't fathom why) I would have pushed for Koine Greek being spoken most often except for the Jewish leaders, who were deadset against the Hellenization of Israel and usually refused to speak or even learn Greek.

Regardless, I expect the film to affect me more than any other film I'll ever see. We really can't say with firmness what any of them spoke, except for the Jewish leaders. They could all be speaking Klingon for all I care -- it's the message that matters.

[FormerLib]

Either that or we would have 3 "denominations" that each claimed primacy.

Actually, there are two Popes in Alexandria at present; the Pope of the Coptic Church and the Orthodox Christian Patriarch of Alexandria (also known as the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria).

[freebilly]

From certain contexts, for example, Jesus' conversation with the Roman captain who wanted his child healed, it is probable that Christ spoke koine Greek.

I think it more probable that the Roman captain spoke Aramaic. Where would Christ have learned Greek? Was Greek being taught in Nazareth at that time? Somehow I doubt it. Would he have spoken Greek in Cana? In Capernaum? Probably not. Jerusalem would have been the only place where Greek was spoken fluently.

I think the Roman, living among Jews, would have picked up enough Aramaic to make himself understood. Like those of us who moved to California and have had to learn to speak "Spanglish" in order to be understood, the centurion probably learned enough Aramaic to speak to the locals.