[section9]

Suggestions and comments welcome. I've a feeling that this is some serious business. As for me, it's off to the gun store in the morning.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[aviator]

USMC Rules For Gunfighting
(Navy rules much shorter at the end)


1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your
friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life
is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast
enough nor using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and
diagonal movements are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a
friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or
tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and
running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more
dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

10. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.

11. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have
to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

12. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

13. Have a plan.

14. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

15. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

16. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

17. Don't drop your guard.

18. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

19. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep
your hands where I can see them).

20. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

21. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot up you will get.

22. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you
meet.

23. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does
not start with a "4."


Navy Rules for Gunfighting

1. Go to Sea

2. Send the Marines

3. Drink Coffee

[Mr Cobol]

Lot of talk about brands and all but haven't seen much about fit. I know I'll get flamed but this something I was taught many years ago.


When I want to see how well a gun fits me, or to get used to the feel, I'll get in a comfortable position with handgun(it has to be where you can get a sight picture easily) and pick out an object and aim at it freehand(of course it's unloaded) and being careful not to move the pistol and aim point I then take a look to see where the thing is pointing.

I know many of you will have negative posts but this has served me well over the years, for one you may not always have the luxury of having time to aim.


Same thing with shotguns. Pick out and object and close your eyes and point, check where you're aiming, if you're way off it doesn't fit you. If you're close that'll work for a shotgun.

I haven't seen this discussed before but like I say it has served me well over the last 50 years.


Not trying to be a Wyatt Earp but practice, practice and practice helps me be a good shooter. Drives my daughters crazy when I make them do it but you'd be surprised how good you can get with a piece that fits you. FWIW.

Shoot straight and shoot often.

[spodefly]

My holiday accessories include the scrumptuous Beretta 92F stuffed with CorBon +P 115gr JHP. If company's coming, the Mossberg 500 with #4 shot in a 3" magnum load makes an excellent yuletide greeting.

[avenir]

Will this do? Sig Sauer P220 Stainless .45 ACP.

It's a little heavy, but the Sig is one of the best fitting/shooting guns I've ever tried (I used to own a Glock 17 and it was awkward, even with the Hogue grip I bought).

[meyer]

And now for my official honest answer - A lot depends on how much you want to spend, but here are my suggestions in no apparent order. Caliber-wise - nothing smaller than a .38 special in revolvers or a 9 mm in autos. I prefer the .357 revolvers and the .45 autos, but the .38 +p works well, as does the .40 cal auto. The only reason I avoid the 9 mm is that the French use them. Its so Euro... It really isn't a bad round, but I don't have any mm guns.

For brands, if you choose a revolver, Smith and Wesson, Colt, Dan Wesson, Ruger are all good brands. I have never bought a Taurus, but their reputation is pretty good as well. Personally, I'd rather have a used 'Smith or Colt than a new Taurus but I will admit that I'm a sucker for a good old blued surface. For autos, anything 1911 is nice, usually. Glocks are very reliable, and Sigs are reported to be as well. Beretta makes a decent Auto, as does Smith and Wesson. Brownings are highly regarded among autos.

Your budget has a lot to do with what you buy. In general, revolvers will give you more bang for your buck, though with reduced ammo capicity. There are a lot of cheap revolvers out there that are very good. Look for a reputable brand.

[YoungKentuckyConservative]

Keltec P-32 is very light, small, and easily concealed without spoiling comfort. Take it to the mall, the movies, or wherever you might be lucky enough to get to gundown a terrorist.

Happy hunting! =) (*sarcasm*)

[Billthedrill]

Oooooh, a gun thread! Cool...

My personal advice - and it is personal - is to own a variety of the little darlings and carefully evaluate the likely scenarios you will be facing before leaving home. Decide on the correct combination of punch and concealability. Then carry the next bigger one.

The real trick is to practice with them all.

Today I practiced with one of my carry pieces, a Kahr 9mm, and one of my warguns, (my baby, oh, yeah,) a .45ACP Kimber. Between these two guns the breaking point is at just about 20 meters - that's as far as a 2 1/2 inch barrel will give me A-zone hits reliably 100% of the time. Beyond that Mister Kimber is just warming up. The difference is another 2 1/2 inches of barrel and a lot of weight. But if you care enough to send the very best...

I am particularly fond of a Glock in .40 S&W, which bridges the gap nicely. I'd be perfectly happy with it in any tactical situation I'm likely to face between home and work. But if I had the time and the carry ability I'd still opt for the .45. Big and slow and strong and it doesn't overpenetrate. Your mileage may vary.

At home it's a 12 gauge Mossberg - the pistols are only if I can't walk around with a long gun. They'd freak at work - weenies. But around home it's the boss for any range I'm likely to need - 100 meters max with my personal load of alternating rounds of #4 buckshot and rifled slug. Anything more serious than that is a rifle, and that's another conversation.

Rifles...mmmmmmm....

[TC Rider]

Always gun, right front pants pocket - Taurus 85 Ti with 38 special +p nyclad hollow points.

Usual gun - Glock 34 on the hip with 9mm +p Silvertip hollow points

Car gun - S&W 625 .45 ACP with 4 moonclips of Silvertips and 10 of hardball.

Always Car rifle - Kel-Tec Sub 2000 with 9mm +p Silvertips (S2K and Glock have interchangeable magazines.

Car/House Shotgun - Remington Mdl 1100 Competition Master with 8 rounds of 00 buck in the magazine and rifled slugs in the carrier.

Yellow? Orange? It's all the same to me.

[Monitor]

My Kahr P9 is small, though not too small (ultra-compact pistols have grips too short for your pinky), thin due to a single stack magazine (double stack magazines give more capacity, but increase the width of the pistol), fires a 9mm round which is sufficient to the task, shoots darn near as accurately as my Walther P99, has a very nice trigger, is light in weight, has a minimum of controls, and has quite acceptable recoil.

A Sig P239 also wouldn't be a bad choice.

[Newbomb Turk]

This one here is what I carry.
Home Depot Special.

[Palladin]

Hmmm...I hadn't thought about it, but maybe it's time to put the revolver back in the glove compartment.

[TheBattman]

My personal choice:

[Euro-American Scum]

Time to clean and lube the collection once more. Here's the drill:

Carry weapon: Glock 30 loaded with Federal 230 gr. Hydrashoks. And it goes everywhere I go.

Assorted other autos include Wilson Combat CQB, Para-Ord P14 Ltd., Sig P245 and lots more Glocks (I forget how many). All loaded the same.

My Glock 19 and Springfield XD9 are loaded up with Cor-Bon 9mm 124 +Ps (for the little woman -- and she knows how to put 'em where they belong).

Remington 870 is loaded with Federal 00 buckshot with slugs on the side saddle. Mossberg 500 loaded the same.

I've got SS-109s loaded in the AR and if I really need to reach out and touch someone, there's my M1A packing Federal 150 gr. .308 ammo.

A good idea is to have different weapons in different locations in case you have to bug out in a hurry. So, I'm set up in Nevada and Arizona in case Kali gets untenable. That is, more untenable than it already is.

[Southack]

I love these threads!

First of all, the sheer presence in America of over 70 Million gun owners gives civilians some decent measure of self-protection. Sure, *I* may not be the one to stop a terrorist, but I'm just one of over 70 Million. Roughly 1 American civilian in 4 is already armed, so we gun owners are already doing our part.

But sadly, the global culture war may require us to do more.

It is not out of the question that terrorists start hitting U.S. hospitals, schools, buses, churches, sports events, international "name" franchises such as McDonalds, and even police headquarters with suicide bombers.

We've seen what they've done in Israel, so we might as well consider that they could replicate those sorts of attacks here.

That being said, I'd place carrying your cell phone, especially picture phones, high up on my personal anti-terror list. Your picture might very well capture a clue or key that leads to the arrest of entire terror cells. Most suicide bombers run with a "handler" who typically is nearby but yet doesn't get close enough to the suicide detonation to be wounded. A photo of the handler before he orders the suicider to activate would have wide-reaching intel value.

For those of us packing heat, we *might* be able to stop such a suicide terrorist. Israeli civilians foil 80% of those terror attacks that are somehow thwarted, and Americans could easily reach this level of success here. But the number of attacks that are thwarted will always be less than the total number of terror attacks.

So if you haven't taken a picture or called 911 or shot one of the terrorists, at least you can help out in the aftermath. For one thing, don't be part of the problem. Take care of yourself and those with you. Don't drain resources that are needed by those less prepared and/or less fortunate to survive the initial attack unscathed.

Be calm and *project* your calmness. Do not add to the panic. This is not about "excitement." This is not about raising everyone's adrenaline level. Deliberately be mundane. "Oh, an attack. OK, I'm going to start talking to the wounded to see who I can help, who needs rapid care, and who needs to be moved, if anyone."

Don't get in the way of Authorities. This is not about you "getting information" or griping to Officials. When the pros show up to aid the wounded, sit still and remain out of their way. Speak when spoken to, don't distract them needlessly. If you find yourself full of "questions", trigger that little bell in your head that says "Hey, I'm nervous and need reassurance." Then give yourself that reassurance and let the pros help those who haven't calmed themselves down yet.

If Authorities do not show up for some length of time, be sure that you have been doing basics such as getting water for the wounded, patching obvious bleeding, dialing 911 but *NOT* tying up cell phone radio circuits with needless chatter to your friends and relatives back home, etc.

In some early terror attacks such as the one at the Rome airport, the initial bomb blasts were followed by terrorists rushing around shooting civilians. For the most part, you want to see but not be seen in such an environment. Do not attempt to become Rambo. If you are unarmed and caught in the open, cut yourself, smear the blood in an obvious location, and play dead.

If you are armed, do *NOT* engage in an open firefight. Shoot when you will least likely be seen and most likely get a hit with a single shot. As a civilian, you are more likely to disrupt a terrorist firefight by not being seen, yet still delivering shots to them. The longer that you survive without them knowing, as a collective group, where you are firing from, the more likely that their training will break down. With this in mind, do *NOT* move away from cover. At all. Do NOT go hunting for them. Time is on your side, as the Authorities *will* eventually arrive, and the terrorists know that fact. Shooters are far less likely to want to die for Allah, too. There is a reason that they are "shooters" instead of suicide bombers. That will to live on their part will be wearing on their training. Thus, the longer you last and are able to deliver occasional shots, the more likely you are to break their entire attack (even though you aren't going to kill them all by being this patient).

Again, don't play Rambo. Do not leave cover. Do not hunt them down. You are winning by staying alive and leaving "doubt" in their minds about *where* your fire is originating. If they have to regroup to think about *you*, then their original terror objective will have become *secondary*, and once off their original game plan they are far less likely to be effective.

[Uncle Jaque]

I rather suspect that IF there are any shoot-'em-up kind of attacks, they will be targeted at convenient "Kill Zones" like schools or workplaces where the carrying of arms by the sheeple is verbotten.

Why be stupid and attack someplace where the victims are apt to resist?

I don't think that they are quite that dumb... although sometimes, like with that "Shoe-bomber" moron, we've gotta wonder!

I rather doubt, however, that we'll be seeing much gunplay on the part of the Jihaddists, if they stay true to form.
It would be more like the Islammakazi human bombs or vehicle bombs in high population density targets, such as shopping malls or sports events.

If they had any significant WMD I think they would have popped them on us by now.

The one scenario where it might come in handy to be armed, is if one were to observe a vanload of rags unlimbering a shoulder-fired ground-to-air missle near an Airport in an attempt to take down an airliner. We live near a US Navy Air Station, and shortly after 9/11 were dining at a drive-in near the end of the runway, and I was eying some of the out-of-state vans parked there suspiciously, and rather glad for the angular old M-1911-A1 digging into my ribs under my vest.

If you ever came accross such an attack in progress, there would be no time to drop a dime to the local Gendarmes;
Options would be run away and hide or engage the ememy.
I would expect that they would have lookouts posted with AKs etc., so there may well be an element of sacrifice in choosing the latter option.

Using a vehicle as a weapon in such instances might be a tactical option, too; why shoot it out with the scum when you can run them over with your pickup truck?

The thing that keeps America free from thugs like this is not just our guns - it's our bloody ATTITUDE!

Neither Secretary RIDGE or any of the government authorities seem at all supporive of Citizens actually resisting terrorists, beyond calling the government to come save us.
They obviously don't want a lot of armed, disorganized vigalantes running around, leaving the LEOs to sort out good guy from bad guy in the melee.

I can relate with that to a certain point, I suppose.

In gulags like Maryland or Kalifornica, don't expect any mercy if caught under arms, orange alert or no alert.
As far as Kommie politicians are concerned, ANY armed American is a bigger threat (at least to THEM and their POWER) than any Jihaddi terrorist!

As at any time; Self and Civil defense is about common sense, self discipline, sobriety, and 360-degree tactical awareness at all times being every bit as critical as what sort of iron you pack.

[Oorang]

So this thread is for practical suggestions for carry and concealment, choice of firearms and ammunition in a low intensity warfare environment

Why, a Barrett 50, of course.

[stuartcr]

Unfortunately, if you work in a fed area, you are not allowed to carry, even in your vehicle.

[Pete-R-Bilt]

Carry what you always carry and practice with.

you do always practice and carry don't you?