A Freeper's Introduction to Rhetoric (Part 3, the Argument Ad Hominem)

Introduction to Logic | Irving M. Copi & Carl Cohen

[general_re]

Earlier installments:

Part 1 - Introduction and the Argument From Ignorance
Part 2 - the Appeal to Inappropriate Authority

[general_re]

Part 3.

Tomorrow's installment is a twofer - the appeal to emotion, and the apeal to force.

[PatrickHenry]

PING. [This ping list is for the evolution side of evolution threads, and sometimes for other science topics. FReepmail me to be added or dropped.]

[PatrickHenry]

Tomorrow's installment is a twofer - the appeal to emotion, and the apeal to force.

Coming from a scoundrel like you, such perverted lessons will have terrifying consequences ...

That's a threefer.

[Tijeras_Slim]

Why don't we invite Lazamataz and Texas_Dawg to this thread for the lab practical?

I suppose general_re is at church this morning...

[CobaltBlue]

I am way, way too busy/lazy to drag out Aristotle, but will remind you that he said (in his Rhetoric) that the reason people use fallacious arguments is because they work.

Human beings are persuaded both by reason and emotion. We instinctively reject arguments from people we dislike or distrust. Thus, the argumentum ad hominem works on that level.

[LogicWings]

Coming from a scoundrel like you

nice example of the subject, you're funny.

[LogicWings]

Human beings are persuaded both by reason and emotion.

Yes, and people persuaded by emotion rather than reason are often led astray. Making decisions based upon emotion is the problem. It was to cut through such - "the counterfeit of argument" that was the purpose of Aristotle's work.

Knowing an argument is fallacious is grounds for rejection.

[PatrickHenry]

Knowing an argument is fallacious is grounds for rejection.

One of the most difficult situations to deal with is when a person is on the right side, but for the wrong reasons. We've all seen people on this website who seem to be absolutely crazy, can't construct or even understand a logical argument, can't deal with abstract ideas at all, but who are patriotic Americans for what seem like nothing but totally emotional reasons.

I'm happy that they vote for the right people, but when they get into arguments with liberals, they really make an angry mess of it. Often they end up doing damage to our cause by giving the impression that all conservatives are nuts. We'd be better off if they understood things a lot better.

[CatoRenasci]

ping

[LogicWings]

We've all seen people on this website who seem to be absolutely crazy, can't construct or even understand a logical argument, can't deal with abstract ideas at all, but who are patriotic Americans for what seem like nothing but totally emotional reasons.

I'm coming to understand the damage they do though. The irrationality of the junk science suppositions behind "Global Warming" for example. They cause real damage, cost real resources, cost real lives. It is this part of it that really bugs me.

Often they end up doing damage to our cause by giving the impression that all conservatives are nuts. We'd be better off if they understood things a lot better.

Goes back to an ability to think, (and that I would have to add 'logically' demonstrates just how depraved we have become.) Reason for this thread. I deal with it as a practical matter in my work every day. Public policy actions taken based upon faulty logic. Costs me money in taxes. Costs you, costs everyone.

I recently reviewed a book, Eco-Imperialism - Green Power, Black Death. (check out the web site) It documents the faulty logic and flawed premises of the environmental movement, and how it has literally caused the death of millions around the world.

It's funny, as an avowed non-altruist I care more about this fact than many of the altruists, of the left and the right do. But I can see myself in those deaths and they only see a floating abstraction principle, the result of which is those very deaths. Demands them in the name of unseen, unborn others.

So it is more than just an exercise in debate for me. I bring this analysis to what I do every day.

And, to reprise:
our cause by giving the impression that all conservatives are nuts.

I must plead guilty, I am not a 'conservative.' So it isn't 'my cause.' I have come to realize more and more of late the poverty of thought that is both 'liberalism' and 'conservatism.' I am so weary of this false dichotomy. Here let me give you an example. Go here. Quiz

Now, did you end up right or left, or up or down?

Right and left don't matter, they are only different justifications for control, up and down is what really matters. Do you advocate individual rights over collective power, or the opposite? A true dichotomy and a classic either/or.

And all the accusations and railings and denigration of logic is to avoid this very fact. This Very Fact. If reason and logic in human affairs can ever be truly "enthroned" then the politics of altruism, which is collectivism by another name, will be dethroned. This is the threat and this is the inevitable conclusion. Either/Or. With individual freedom hanging in the balance.

Don't know if you've been following other debates (you suprise me in this regard) but this is fundamental.

Liberty

There is so much embedded here. To "own yourself" presupposes an intellect to know what 'yourself' is as well as the abstract 'ownership.' I said 'intellect' but by that I then imply, logic, reason, law of identity, and so much more.

And if a person, every person, doesn't recognize the principle that that person, 'owns himself' (sorry I ain't PC) then the principle of "Rights" of "Ownership" is merely a power struggle, pure and simple. In that case the Hell Angels, or the Republicans win, it doesn't matter. We are all just slaves. (when is tax freedom day? May, June? Even Negroes in the South got to keep part of what they grew for themselves to survive on. It is only a matter of quantity.)

Ok, been a long day for me. But I have been very 'disheartened' by the lack of response to these threads. Understanding this issue is far more important than most people realize.

The sophistry of some people here notwithstanding, reason is the balwark that holds this society together, as you well understand. And reason cannot exist apart from logic. And fallacies are faulty logic.

The question is, are you willing to go where the conclusions lead? If not, then reason doesn't matter at all.

[GeronL]

So Ad Hominem (unrelated to Ad Eminem) means, NAME CALLING?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[PatrickHenry]

You gotta stop posting these things in "Chat." No one goes there. Next one, do it in the main forum.

[P.O.E.]

Ping

[general_re]

Sigh.

[Hank Kerchief]

PHILOSOPHY PING

(If you want on or off this list please freepmail me.)

Ad hominem fallacy - (against the man). Ad hominem is the attempt to impugn an argument by attacking the arguer's character, motives, personality, intentions, or qualifications.

(Note: Insulting, denigrating, or impugning the character or morality of an individual, in itself, however reprehensible, is not necessarily an "ad hominem," as is frequently and falsely alleged. It is an ad hominem only if the personal attacks are used within the scope of a logical argument.)

Example: "Harry couldn't possibly know what good food is, he was raised in England." The ad hominem is only implied, that being from England disqualifies someone from making good judgement about cuisine. The attacks are usually more vituperative than this example.

Hank

[Mr.Atos]

That "Liberty" graphic is a tremedous piece. This is the first I've seen of it, but it should be placed on CD-ROM and circulated to every library and school in America. How about even a preview in movie theaters?! The simplicity of the concept has been captured here in its most fundamental form.

While I agree with the point you both make concerning the danger and potential damage of a bad argument in defense of the right principle lost to the wrong person, the dilemma lies with the ability of people to learn from mistakes. The consequence of the engagement has the abilty to encourage one to learn from the process of debate to develop a logical argument. In my case, this is how I learned that my positions (leftist conjecture maintained in the naivete of post teen-dom) were wrong. Positions that were wrong could not be adequately defended. I learned this the hard way and was forced to re-evaluate the contradictions in my belief system. Beliefs were quickly overcome by thought process through which I have been developing ever since. In the same way, I expect that some (not all) of those who bravely attempt to defend the right principles in a public forum should be commended for the effort on the one hand, and corrected where necessary on the other.

Bad defenders are indeed a liability. Good ones, nevertheless, are priceless! Consider these threads to be the vehicle for this process.

[PatrickHenry]

To be a bit specific about using a bad argument to justify a good thing, consider those who justifiy the free enterprise system based on their religious beliefs. I consider free enterprise to be a very good thing; but it works for all religions that I know of, and is entirely justifiable on economic principles, regardless of one's religion (or the lack thereof). Indeed, every economic system, from slavery to feudalism to communism (the system originally practiced by the Mayflower passengers), has been "justified" by the then-prevailing religious regime. Religious arguments in support of economic systems are inherently fallacious. Those who mix the two -- merely because they are emotionally attached to both -- are bound to confuse, and sometimes even repel, those who (correctly) find the religious argument unpersuasive in the field of economics.

[Mr.Atos]

You make a good argument, especially with that economic example. The other example that I would propose regards the subjects of marriage and abortion. Passionate religious arguments on behalf of either of these topics dramatically undermine the correctness of either position (defense of marriage and the opposition to abortion) by establishing a mystic, emotional, and unsupportable precondition for both that are otherwise reasonable, rational, and incontovertably defendable.

And although, I do maintain my own 'mystic' affiliations, they belong to the realm of personal spirituality and not human interactions. I never use them in defense of a philosophical position and likewise get frustrated when dismissed in that regard, by others. But, I had to learn that for myself. So where is the balance? ... between being wrong and becoming right? I rarely engage a debate short of the facts; so I think. But, we are all taught a lesson or two from time to time (Radiometers come to mind). It is often a good thing, is it not?. Granted, it is not when the teacher is a Leftist driving a false premise through a conjectural wall.

This is an issue I consider everytime I post (especially among you talented gentlemen and women) or engage an Editorial Opinion via a submitted rebuttle.

Atos