Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Involution or Deflationary Spiral: China's Own Making or Trump's Tariffs
5/3/2025 | EBH and Grok

Posted on 05/03/2025 9:50:28 AM PDT by EBH

It is not just the Trump Tariffs

The concept of "involution" in China—where intense competition leads to diminishing returns without meaningful progress—ties closely to a deflationary spiral. It’s a vicious cycle: overcapacity, weak domestic demand, and cutthroat price wars drive prices down, eroding profits, discouraging investment, and further dampening consumption. This isn’t just a recent phenomenon; China’s economic challenges have been brewing for nearly a decade, predating the tariff wars often scapegoated for the downturn.

Involution and Deflationary Spiral Involution, or nei juan, reflects a structural issue where resources are poured into hyper-competitive sectors—like solar panels, electric vehicles, or real estate—without proportional economic gains. Firms overproduce to outpace rivals, flooding markets with excess supply. This overcapacity depresses prices, as seen in the producer price index (PPI), which has been negative since September 2022, with a 2.5% drop in March 2025. Consumer prices are also faltering, falling 0.7% in February 2025, marking the longest deflationary streak since the 1960s.

Weak demand fuels this spiral. Households, burdened by high debt (60–64% of GDP, mostly mortgages) and falling home prices (down for 20 consecutive months), are cutting back on spending. Youth unemployment, officially at 18.8% in August 2024 but likely higher, adds to the gloom, with many young people becoming “professional children” reliant on parents. This lack of confidence leads to hoarding cash, further reducing consumption and deepening deflation.

Tariffs: Scapegoat or Catalyst? While tariffs, especially under Trump’s 2025 “reciprocal tariff” regime (10% on all imports, 60% on Chinese goods), exacerbate China’s woes, they’re not the root cause. China’s export-driven model was already strained by internal imbalances—low consumption, overinvestment, and debt-fueled growth—long before tariffs escalated. Posts on X from 2023 highlight this shift from an unsustainable export- and real estate-led economy, with private sector debt soaring past 200% of GDP.

Tariffs do hurt, though. They reduce export demand, forcing Chinese firms to slash prices further or absorb costs, squeezing already thin margins. For example, Chinese steelmakers face a 6.44% year-on-year drop in blast furnace operating rates, reflecting weaker global demand. But blaming tariffs alone ignores the deeper issue: China’s economy was already grappling with overcapacity and diminishing returns from its investment-led model, as noted by economists like Andy Xie as early as 2022.

A Decade-Long Downturn China’s slowdown began around 2015, when GDP growth started consistently lagging the 7–8% pre-pandemic norm, dropping to around 5% by 2024. Key drivers include: Debt Overhang: Corporate debt ranges from 123–172% of GDP, with local government financing vehicles (LGFVs) funding unproductive infrastructure.

Property Market Collapse: Once a wealth engine, real estate is now a liability. Defaults by giants like Evergrande and Country Garden, coupled with a 9.9% drop in property investment in Q1 2025, have crushed consumer confidence.

Demographic Decline: An aging population (set to shrink 1% over the next decade, with a 44% rise in those over 65) suppresses long-term demand.

Policy Missteps: Xi Jinping’s focus on state-driven high-tech manufacturing over private enterprise and consumption-led growth has exacerbated overcapacity. Subsidies for industries like solar have led to output double global demand, with utilization rates as low as 23% in 2024.

These issues, compounded by geopolitical tensions and decoupling (e.g., U.S. and EU antidumping tariffs on Chinese solar panels since 2013), were dragging China’s economy down well before Trump’s latest tariffs.

Why It’s Not Just Tariffs The narrative pinning China’s woes on tariffs oversimplifies a complex problem. Tariffs amplify deflationary pressures by curbing exports, but China’s internal dynamics—overproduction, debt, and weak consumption—set the stage. For instance, the restaurant industry saw 3 million closures in 2024 due to price wars and low demand, a clear sign of domestic “involution” unrelated to trade barriers.

Moreover, China’s response to tariffs is limited. Retaliatory tariffs are weak since China imports little from the U.S. Devaluing the yuan risks capital flight, and export bans (e.g., on rare earths) could accelerate global supply chain diversification away from China.

Breaking the Spiral? Reversing this downturn requires addressing root causes, not just external shocks like tariffs.

Economists suggest: Boosting Consumption: Subsidies for trade-ins, childcare, or low-income households could help, but current fiscal spending still prioritizes supply-side expansion.

Monetary Reform: Former central bank governor Yi Gang emphasized fixing the money supply-demand mismatch, as M1 growth has lagged M2 since 2021, signaling cash hoarding.

Structural Reforms: Shifting from state-led investment to private enterprise and welfare reform could rebalance the economy, but Xi’s top-down approach makes this unlikely.

Without these, deflation could persist for another two years, risking a “Japanification” scenario of prolonged stagnation, though China’s manufacturing base and capital controls may prevent a full repeat of Japan’s lost decades.

Final Thoughts China’s deflationary spiral, driven by involution, is a self-reinforcing trap rooted in a decade of structural imbalances, not just tariffs. While external pressures like trade wars worsen the situation, the core issues—overcapacity, debt, and weak demand—require internal fixes that Beijing has been slow to embrace. The economy isn’t collapsing, but it’s suffocating slowly, and the longer it delays reform, the harder the recovery.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat; Politics
KEYWORDS: china; deflationaryspiral; involution; iwbg

Click here: to donate by Credit Card

Or here: to donate by PayPal

Or by mail to: Free Republic, LLC - PO Box 9771 - Fresno, CA 93794

Thank you very much and God bless you.

A deflationary spiral is indeed one of the most insidious economic traps, and your concern about its severity and recovery challenges is well-founded. It’s a self-reinforcing cycle where falling prices lead to reduced spending, lower production, job losses, and further price declines, grinding economic activity to a halt. Recovering from it is brutally difficult, though not impossible, as history and China’s current situation illustrate. Let’s break down why it’s so dangerous and whether recovery is feasible, especially in China’s context.

Why Deflationary Spirals Are So Destructive Consumer Behavior Locks In Decline: When prices fall, consumers delay purchases, expecting cheaper goods later. In China, this is evident in weak retail sales (up only 3.5% in Q1 2025) and a stagnant consumer confidence index. Reduced spending starves businesses of revenue, forcing price cuts or layoffs.

Debt Becomes Crushing: Deflation increases the real value of debt. Chinese households, with debt at 60–64% of GDP, and corporations, at 123–172% of GDP, face heavier burdens as incomes and revenues shrink. This fuels defaults, as seen in the property sector with firms like Evergrande.

Investment Dries Up: Falling profits—exacerbated by China’s PPI dropping 2.5% in March 2025—discourage investment. Firms cut back on expansion, innovation, or hiring, deepening economic stagnation.

Policy Traps: Central banks can’t cut interest rates below zero, and quantitative easing loses traction when confidence is low. In China, monetary easing is constrained by yuan depreciation risks, while fiscal stimulus is limited by local government debt and weak tax revenues (down 3.5% in 2024).

The spiral’s momentum makes it feel like quicksand: the harder you struggle, the deeper you sink. Japan’s “lost decades” since the 1990s are a textbook case—deflation entrenched low growth, and despite massive stimulus, recovery took decades. Your instinct that it’s “nearly impossible to recover” aligns with this; once entrenched, deflation reshapes expectations, making it hard to jolt an economy back to life.

Is Recovery Possible for China? While daunting, recovery isn’t impossible, but it requires aggressive, coordinated action and structural reform—both of which China struggles to deliver. Historical examples, like the U.S. during the Great Depression, show recovery via massive fiscal stimulus (New Deal) and monetary innovation, but China’s unique challenges complicate this:

Overcapacity Must End: Industries like solar and steel, with output far exceeding demand, need consolidation. Yet, state subsidies keep zombie firms alive, prolonging price wars.

Consumption Needs a Boost: The CEWC’s 2024 push for trade-in subsidies and childcare support aims to spur spending, but weak consumer sentiment and property wealth losses (home prices down 20 months straight) blunt impact.

Debt Restructuring: Reducing household and local government debt burdens is critical, but Beijing’s reluctance to let markets clear (e.g., via bankruptcies) delays healing.

Policy Constraints: Unlike the U.S. in the 1930s, China faces global trade headwinds (e.g., 60% U.S. tariffs) and internal political rigidity. Xi’s state-driven model resists private-sector reforms needed to rebalance growth.

Japan’s partial recovery after 2013 via “Abenomics” (fiscal stimulus, monetary easing, and reforms) offers a playbook, but China’s centralized system and demographic decline (population shrinking 1% per decade) limit adaptability. Posts on X highlight skepticism about Beijing’s 5.4% GDP growth claims, suggesting deeper malaise.

Can China Escape? China’s not doomed, but the window is narrowing. A mix of bold stimulus—say, direct cash transfers to households, not just infrastructure—and market reforms to curb overcapacity could break the spiral. The 2025 fiscal deficit hike to 4% of GDP and planned rate cuts are steps, but their scale is modest. Without addressing structural issues, like property debt or state dominance, deflation could linger, risking a Japan-style stagnation. The longer it festers, the harder the climb, as they rightly fear.

1 posted on 05/03/2025 9:50:28 AM PDT by EBH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: EBH

Using steel as a example is sort of not relevant to what is happening in 2025 but is an example of what happened between 2017-2021. The rest of the world put standards on Rebar and structural steel that China was not complying with (selling substandard product marked as standard product) but marking their product grade whatever with and introducing into the bulk commodity marketplace. China’s steel problems started in the first Trump administration, and really hit the China to the world steel market in 2022.

US Steel (USX) sells substandard steel worldwide and the US legal world will have recourse to make those actions not profitable. Not only the customers with the failures, the customers with perfectly good steel will flatten structures and sue just in case.


2 posted on 05/03/2025 9:59:43 AM PDT by protoconservative (Been Conservative Before You Were Born )
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EBH

Why War Is Unlikely in the Near Term

Economic Costs of Conflict: War, especially over Taiwan or with the U.S., would devastate China’s economy. Its export-driven model depends on stable global trade; conflict would disrupt supply chains, crash markets, and accelerate decoupling. China’s foreign exchange reserves ($3.2 trillion in 2024) are substantial but would drain fast in a prolonged conflict. The property crisis and local government debt (est. $13 trillion) already strain finances, making war a risky bet.

Domestic Stability First: The CCP’s primary goal is regime survival. War risks internal chaos, especially if it goes poorly. Xi’s crackdowns on dissent and emphasis on “common prosperity” show a focus on controlling domestic unrest over external gambles. Recent CEWC policies (e.g., 4% deficit to fund consumption) prioritize stabilizing the economy, not military escalation.

Geopolitical Constraints: China faces a united front of U.S., Japan, and AUKUS allies, plus growing Indian assertiveness. A Taiwan invasion, for instance, would trigger sanctions, naval blockades, and likely U.S. intervention, with catastrophic economic and military costs. Beijing’s 2024 military exercises near Taiwan were provocative but stopped short of escalation, suggesting caution.

Demographic and Structural Limits: China’s aging population (44% rise in over-65s by 2035) and shrinking workforce reduce its capacity for sustained conflict. Overcapacity in industries like steel and solar ties up resources that could be diverted to war efforts.

Long-Term Risks
While war isn’t imminent, prolonged economic stagnation could raise risks over 5–10 years. If deflation persists—PPI down 2.5% in 2025, signaling ongoing overcapacity—and reforms fail, social unrest could force the CCP to lean harder on nationalism. Taiwan remains a flashpoint; Xi’s rhetoric about “reunification” is unrelenting, and a desperate regime might miscalculate. South China Sea disputes or border clashes with India could also escalate if economic pressures mount

Conclusion
China’s deflationary spiral isn’t a direct path to war. The CCP prioritizes stability and economic recovery, as seen in 2025’s fiscal and monetary easing. War’s economic and political costs outweigh benefits for now, and global constraints deter aggression. However, if economic woes deepen without structural fixes, nationalism could become a dangerous outlet, raising conflict risks by the 2030s. Monitoring CEWC policies and social unrest indicators will be key to assessing this trajectory.


3 posted on 05/03/2025 10:00:47 AM PDT by EBH (We haven't run out of road, the can rusted away. )
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: protoconservative

They could allow competition and free entrepreneurship.

They won’t, but they could.


4 posted on 05/03/2025 10:03:43 AM PDT by lurk (u)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: EBH

What’s happening in China started before the current Trump administration. Their problems are of their own making, and include a massive depopulation during their COVID lockdown with crematoriums running 24/7. They may have lost 200 million people in that time


5 posted on 05/03/2025 10:26:03 AM PDT by captain_dave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EBH

I would say it China’s problems could lead to war - QE and borrowing to build up and pay for war is inflationary. They have 30 million “extra” men with no prospects for a wife and limited employment opportunities….losing vast numbers of those rights some of the gender imbalance. Protesters and other troublemakers can always be sent “to the front” and allowed to soak up/waste enemy ammunition.


6 posted on 05/03/2025 10:46:50 AM PDT by Repeat Offender
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: captain_dave

Totally agree with you. The tariffs have just a tiny impact, but Xi could use them to try and strike up the national fervor.

But this decline has been happening for over a decade and they have yet to change course.


7 posted on 05/03/2025 2:29:04 PM PDT by EBH (We haven't run out of road, the can rusted away. )
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: captain_dave

“… a massive depopulation during their COVID lockdown with crematoriums running 24/7. They may have lost 200 million people in that time…”
*********************************

IMHO only…. that’s nonsense.


8 posted on 05/04/2025 12:50:36 AM PDT by House Atreides (I’m now ULTRA-MAGA-PRO-M)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson