Posted on 07/20/2023 7:07:03 PM PDT by Macho MAGA Man
“Is using them a war crime?
The use of cluster bombs itself does not violate international law, but using them against civilians can be a violation. As in any strike, determining a war crime requires looking at whether the target was legitimate and if precautions were taken to avoid civilian casualties.”
“The part of international law where this starts playing [a role], though, is indiscriminate attacks targeting civilians,” Human Rights Watch’s associate arms director Mark Hiznay told The Associated Press news agency. “So that’s not necessarily related to the weapons, but the way the weapons are used.”
Anything you say, Jan.
The 82’nd just lost their transportation.
———
Being ex-82nd, from what Vlad is unleashing in tons of artillery, rockets and glide bombs, the 82nd would never get within closing distance, light infantry with all you can carry ( maybe three days) is of course suicide in this theatre.
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No, Russia has a handful of cluster weapons.
They decided to rely on massive artillery barrages due to existing equipment.
It’s fundamentally the same thing, just takes more delivery devices and is logistically harder to move due to all the iron.
But, yes, they’ve already been doing this.
The US is supplying the M864 155mm apparently. That is the current model, though the stocks may go back to the 1990s.
The Russians don’t seem to have a 152mm DPICM, or if so, not many. They have used (a lot) of rocket based DPICM munitions, especially from the 220mm Uragan, for which this seems to be the primary munition.
Don’t name-call, and you should be happy to learn something new, the Russian CB fail rate is 30% to 40%.
“The Defense Department had been due by 2019 to stop use of any cluster munitions with a rate of unexploded ordnance greater than 1%. But the Trump administration rolled back that policy, allowing commanders to approve use of such munitions.”
The Trump administration cancels a plan to curtail the use of cluster bombs
November 30, 2017
“The policy change, which reverses a 2008 decision by the George W. Bush administration”
“The 2008 policy would have banned the use of all cluster munitions that have an unexploded ordnance rate above 1 percent. Going forward, the U.S. military will be allowed to buy cluster bombs that don’t meet that standard, so long as they have “advanced safety features” such as self-destruct mechanisms that would kick in after they are dropped.
He’s correct. Russia made a strategic decision to rely on its massive artillery stockpile.
It’s not a slam against Russia. It was a logical decision made back when made in 1970s.
>> Spain hasn’t got F16s. It uses F-18s and Eurofighters... the “bombers” in this case would be the F18s.
Fair enough. So why doesn’t Spain send Ukraine F-18s and/or Eurofighters then?
Because it’s so easy to keep SPANISH skin out of the game and let Uncle Sugar pay the cost and its citizens take all the risk of nuclear holocaust?
Neither Ukraine nor Russia is a stranger to cluster bomb usage. Russia actually started using them in WWII, and is still using them in this Special Military Operation. Ukraine may have run dry, due to attacks on its munitions plants. It is now getting resupplied, in a NATO caliber.
A timeline of cluster bomb use
Details on all instances of use are available through the Cluster Munition Monitor and in individual country profiles.
- 2012–2018 in Syria:
The government has denied possessing or using cluster munitions, but its armed forces are responsible for the bulk of the more than 630 cluster munition attacks recorded from 2012 to mid-2018.- 2015-2018 in Yemen:
The armed coalition led by Saudi Arabia used cluster bombs repeatedly in populated areas in 2015-2017. In 2018, cluster munition attacks were probably ongoing but were more difficult to record and confirm, due to challenges in collecting first-hand evidence. Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and others have documented evidence of at least 23 cluster munition attacks during the conflict.- 2015 in Sudan:
Cluster munitions were used by the Sudanese air force in the Nuba Mountains (South Kordofan) during indiscriminate bombings on civilian areas in February and March 2015. There have been additional reports of use in May 2015. The government of Sudan should investigate and explain these incidents, as requested by the UN Security Council on 29 June 2015.- 2014-2017 in Libya:
There is confirmed evidence that cluster munitions were used in at least two instances between December 2014 and March 2015, in Sirte and Bin Jawad, and additional unconfirmed reports of use on the Watiya front. The commander of the air force of the internationally recognized government of Libya has denied using cluster munitions. In 2016 and 2017, evidence continued to emerge indicating that Libyan National Army forces were using cluster munitions.- 2014 & 2015 in Ukraine:
Cluster munitions were used by both sides to the conflict in January and February 2015. An OSCE mission documented use by Ukrainian government forces in Luhansk city in late January 2015, while Ukrainian government forces had already used cluster munitions in Donetsk city in October 2014. In August 2014, remnants of cluster munitions were documented in territory controlled by Ukrainian government forces and in territory controlled by armed insurgents. As early as July 2014, evidence indicated cluster munitions had been used.- 2014 in South Sudan:
In February 2014 the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS) found new cluster munition contamination near the town of Bor on the road to Juba. In September 2014 South Sudan reported to the 5th Meeting of States Parties to the Convention that an investigation conducted jointly with UN officials had not been able to determine who had used the weapon. Both South Sudan and Uganda have denied use.- Ongoing since 2012 in Syria:
The use of cluster munitions in the Syrian conflict started in 2012.- 2012 in Sudan:
Two allegations of cluster munition use by the armed forces of Sudan in South Kordofan. Remnants and evidence were found.- 2011 in Libya:
Gaddafi’s forces use cluster munitions in Misrata, Libya.- 2011 in Cambodia:
Thailand uses cluster munitions on Cambodian territory during a border conflict in February 2011.- 2008 in Georgia:
Russia uses several types of cluster munitions, both air- and ground-launched, in a number of locations in Georgia’s Gori district. Also Georgia uses cluster munitions in the August 2008 conflict with Russia.- 2006 in Israel:
Hezbollah fires more than 100 Chinese-produced Type-81 122mm cluster munition rockets into northern Israel.- 2006 in Lebanon:
Israeli forces use surface-launched and air-dropped cluster munitions against Hezbollah. The UN estimates that Israel used up to 4 million submunitions.- 2003–2006 in Iraq:
The US and UK use nearly 13,000 cluster munitions containing an estimated 1.8 to 2 million submunitions in the three weeks of major combat. A total of 63 CBU-87 bombs were dropped by US aircraft between May 1, 2003 and August 1, 2006.- In Uganda, date of use unknown:
RBK-250/275 bombs and AO-1SCh submunitions found in the northern district of Gulu.- 2001–2002 in Afghanistan:
The US drops 1,228 cluster bombs containing 248,056 bomblets.- 1999 in Yugoslavia (including Serbia, Montenegro,and Kosovo):
The US, UK, and Netherlands drop 1,765 cluster bombs, containing 295,000 bomblets.- 1998–2003 in DR Congo:
BL-755 bombs used by unknown forces in Kasu village in Kabalo territory.- 1998–1999 in Albania:
Yugoslav forces launch cross-border rocket attacks and NATO forces carry out six aerial cluster munition strikes.- 1998 in Ethiopia/Eritrea:
Ethiopia and Eritrea exchange aerial cluster munition strikes, Ethiopia attacking the Asmara airport and Eritrea attacking the Mekele airport. Ethiopia also dropped BL-755 bombs in Gash-Barka province of western Eritrea.- 1998 in Colombia:
The Colombian Air Force used a cluster munition in SantoDomingo, a village in the department of Arauca. In 2009, Colombia disclosed that previously it had used cluster munitions on other occasions to attack airfields used by drug traffickers.- 1997 in Sierra Leone:
Nigerian ECOMOG peacekeepers use Beluga bombs on the eastern town of Kenema.- 1996–1999 in Sudan:
Sudanese government forces use air-dropped cluster munitions in southern Sudan, including Chilean made PM-1 submunitions.- 1995 in Croatia:
On May 2-3, 1995, an NSAG uses Orkan M-87 multiple rocket launchers to attack civilians in Zagreb. Additionally, the Croatian government claimed that Serb forces used BL-755 bombs in Sisak, Kutina, and along the Kupa River.- 1994–1996 in Chechnya:
Russian forces use cluster munitions against NSAG.- 1992–1997 in Tajikistan:
Use by unknown forces in civil war. ShOAB and AO-2.5RT submunitions have been found in the town of Gharm in the Rasht Valley.- 1992–1995 in Bosnia & Herzegovina: Forces of Yugoslavia and NSAG use available stocks of cluster munitions during civil war. NATO aircraft drop two CBU-87 bombs.
- 1992–1994 in Nagorno-Karabakh:
Submunition contamination has been identified in at least 162 locations. Submunition types cleared by deminers include PTAB-1, ShOAB-0.5, AO-2.5.- 1992–1994 in Angola:
PTAB submunitions found in various locations.- 1991 in Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia:
The US and its allies (France, Saudi Arabia, UK) drop 61,000 cluster bombs containing some 20 million submunitions. The number of cluster munitions delivered by surface-launched artillery and rocket systems during the Gulf War is not known, but an estimated 30 million or more DPICM submunitions were used in the conflict.- 1986–1987 in Chad:
French aircraft drop cluster munitions on a Libyan airfield at Wadi Doum. Libyan forces also used AO-1SCh and PTAB-2.5 submunitions.- 1982 in Falkland Islands (Malvinas):
UK aircraft drop cluster munitions on Argentinean infantry positions near Port Stanley, Port Howard, and Goose Green.- 1982 in Lebanon:
Israel uses cluster munitions against Syrian forces and NSAG in Lebanon.- 1979–1989 in Afghanistan:
Soviet forces make use of air-dropped and rocket-delivered cluster munitions. NSAG also use rocket-delivered cluster munitions on a smaller scale.- 1978 in Lebanon:
Israel uses cluster munitions in southern Lebanon.- 1971–1973 in Syria:
Israel uses air-dropped cluster munitions against non-state armed group (NSAG) training camps near Damascus.- 1975–1988 in Western Sahara:
Moroccan forces use cluster munitions against NSAG.- 1960s–1970s in Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam:
US forces make extensive use of cluster munitions in bombing campaigns. The ICRC estimates that in Laos alone, 9 to 27 million unexploded submunitions remain, and some 11,000 people have been killed or injured, more than 30 percent of them children. An estimate based on US military databases states that 9,500 sorties in Cambodia delivered up to 87,000 air-dropped cluster munitions.- 1943 in United Kingdom:
German aircraft drop more than 1,000 SD-2 butterfly bombs on the port of Grimsby.- 1943 in USSR:
Soviet forces use air-dropped cluster munitions against German armour. German forces use SD-1 and SD-2 butterfly bombs against artillery on the Kursk salient.
Yeah, but Biden sent the 2nd battalion to Kabul for a CF two Augusts ago.
“It is well that war is so terrible. Otherwise we should grow to fond of it.” ~ Robert E Lee
I am not sure I believe in war crimes. If it is worth going to war then it is worth killing every man, woman, and child. If you are not willing to do that, maybe your country shouldn’t go to war.
There was a fundamental change made by May (probably) of 2022.
Before that Russia used its Soviet-era conventional war doctrine, modified by pushing the “combined arms” concept to a very low level (hence the battalion tactical groups, and de-emphasis of regimental/brigade and division level control). This was an extreme mobile war concept, stressing a quick breakthrough and rapid exploitation by independent units (hence the supposedly independent BTGs).
But this concept failed, for the most part, during the Ukraine invasion, and Russia found itself short of maneuver units after heavy casualties. That’s when the guns were brought under central control and the artillery based concept took over.
I'm not interested in what foreigners posing as Americans post on FR.
This is the second time today that you've revealed your lack of knowledge of common American cultural motifs, ansel.
It wasn't name-calling, it was a meme from the Brady Bunch. But you got your undies in a bunch over your misinterpretation...
Earlier, you didn't know what freeper Skywise was talking about when he/she posted It’s (D)ifferent when we do it....
I just pinged you to this post so you can see what I'm talking about, Jewbacca.
good movie
Because its a way bigger pitb to convert to F18, a much more complex plane.
Finland contemplated transferring THEIR surplus F18s and gave up on it.
Other countries have lots of spare F16s, let each contribute what they have.
I believe the Spanish Leopards are being delivered now. I saw one the Ukrainans enhanced with reactive armor. The Spanish can probably deliver 100 units or so. They are shipping them as they are overhauled from being in storage.
t would have already had a negotiated settlement.
Exactly. The only reason this crap is still going on is because the US and NATO want it to.
I don’t know much about Ukraine except that they have some beautiful women and they had ‘love tours’ over there for the PassportBros. But it will never recover from this. Most of the folks that have left will never return and why should they?
Leave a destroyed and corrupt country to live in peace somewhere else in Europe or the US. Hmmmmm.....decisions, decisions
I’m a Texan and my family has been here just shy of 400 years.
Don’t call names and quit thinking everyone is a kid who watches television or owns one or cares about your child-like obsession with children’s trivia, some of us had better things to do than watch television all their lives.
I recognized that the name you called me was from that television show but from memes, not because I ever saw it.
Great, the internet Ghengis Khan.
Worse, he knows nothing about baseball.
I suspect he is a foreigner.
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