Higher Education and the Law of Diminishing Returns, Part II

James G. Martin Center for Academic Renewal ^ | April 28, 2023 | Richard K. Vedder

[karpov]

Recently, I argued in a Martin Center article that the fourth year of study for the bachelor’s degree is probably relatively unproductive and that enormous resources could be saved by introducing three-year degree programs like those found in Europe. What works at Oxford should also work at, say, Appalachian State University.

Yet I told only half the story: Many students go on to get graduate or professional degrees. Does the Law of Diminishing Returns apply to these programs, as well? Yes. Universities offer such programs at least in part to collect tuition revenues and to allow faculty to teach the classes they like, depriving program participants of the opportunity to enter the Real World and make a good living several years earlier.

Let’s start with law schools.

I was once asked by the American Bar Association to speak at a conference on legal education, where a central question was: Why does law school take three years, in addition to four years of undergraduate training?

In some countries, notably Britain, students can go to law school right after high school, dramatically lowering their educational expenses. In some locations, students can study with a local lawyer and, upon passage of the bar exam, begin the practice of law. Why do we need seven years of university study in the U.S.?

Lawyers tell me that the fundamentally important courses are taught in the first year, that some possibly valuable ones are taught in the second year, and that the third year involves taking a bunch of electives—material that’s not essential in passing the bar exam and that rarely touches on anything the future lawyer will come across in his career. Why not allow students to choose a two-year law school, or simply let anyone practice who passes the bar exam

[Dilbert San Diego]

I’ve heard talk like this, regarding the usual four years of college. People say, how the key courses of your major could be completed easily in two years, but the bachelor’s degree takes four years to complete.

Is it an outdated notion, that a four year college education gives you some “well rounded” education, by having courses on history, literature, etc, which while unrelated to your college major, still give you some educational experience?

[ConservativeInPA]

It all depends on what you need to learn. When I was in college, and I assume this is still the case at some schools, there were 3/2 programs for engineering. You would get the credits for a BS in physics in three years and spend an additional two years getting the credits in engineering, which was specialized in civil, mechanical, electrical, etc. degrees. It takes that long for most people because they they have a limit to the number of rigorous courses they can concurrently take. It also allows a healthy dose of general electives, that if taught correctly, help you become more well rounded and a better critical thinker.

On the other hand, there are entirely too many majors that do not require rigor because there is nothing rigorous about them. Perhaps, these mostly newly discovered majors shouldn’t even exist because they have zero value.

[Republican in occupied CA]

Like many people with more sense than money, I completed every single course I could at the local Junior College. When I went to university I only had to take a year and a half’s worth of classes because everything else transferred.

Strengthening the Junior College/Community College system would be a good bang for the buck in my opinion. Ours has EXCELLENT trade and tech classes in everything from diesel and electric car repair and maintenance to landscape architecture and public safety. In my case it let me learn drafting, welding, a bit of graphic arts and get not only my 2 year degree but lots of stuff for my 4 year degree out of the way at a lower cost.

The concept of 4-year college for everyone, combined with the entitlement mentality and the expectation of going to a prestige school makes no sense.

[PGR88]

OR - why does one need law school at all?

Judges must be familiar with the law overall, particularly historical and legal precedent.

But most lawyers practice is very industry specific. Often, it doesn’t even involve “law” per se, rather following government regulatory fiat, lobbying, industry “state of the art,” and even “sales.” Nearly all of that is not connected to “school” in the slightest.

[faithhopecharity]

Many of those three year BA BS degree students had a year 13 in high school. And nearly all of them had better high school preparation for college studies than some USA high schools offer.

As for the Juris Doctor law 3 or 4 year graduate degree, it is a long hard study program. But yes, many law students got very little genuine preparation for it as undergraduates. So I’m of two minds about it. Basically, though, I’d still hire a full JD over some less- schooled person. If there were no criminal elements or serious money at risk in a case, maybe we could allow well- trained paralegals to handle them — if clients want — sort of like we allow nurse practitioners in sone states. ?

[DIRTYSECRET]

This article opens eyes. Sounds like there’s an education industrial complex at work. 4 year degrees take 5-6 years to complete, time that could be spent in the work force.

Then there’s the GED one should be able to take early and drop out of school if passed..

Last it’s the trimester system that should be applied to community colleges. No wasted summers for those that are serious about going to work in the trades.

These ideas have been posted before. Immature teenagers have the option of ‘parking’ their butts in a lecture hall while figuring out what they want to do later but it should not happen at taxpayer expense.

I’d go for tuition expenses paid for the top 10% of HS grads. They’ll end up pulling the wagon. Gets rid of the welfare serfs.

[Seruzawa]

Replace “well rounded” with “brainwashed” and the truth is revealed. Entire areas of curriculum... Psychology, economics, sociology, anthropology are pseudosciences.

[Seruzawa]

I did a BS in EE and frankly on the job I seldom used much more than Ohm’s Law and other basic stuff on semiconductors, etc which are taught in the first year.

[Maine Mariner]

I don’t know if any medical schools in the USA have six year programs BA to MD any more, but I think Baylor University had a six year program some years ago.

[Republican in occupied CA]

Welding shop was exactly that; we had a summer session or you could work and get credit (the local places always checked with the shop teacher). A summer session that had 8 unit all day classes, so you could really study and practice full time without worrying about other things (at least academic things).

Really, English, math, science, chemistry can easily be taught on the cheap at a JC. University should be more for specialization, putting focused young adults in direct contact with experts in their fields with professional advancement as the goal.

I had a great time at the JC; I didn’t finish HS (got kicked out) so started at the JC at a few days shy of 16, then spent 4+ years getting all my stuff out of the way for university, learning welding, drafting, some fun stuff while working part time, chasing women; when I got to university I had a trade, a back-up trade, my wild oats sown and was ready to get down to study.

The biggest damned shame is that we have such a need for trained tradespeople, we have kids who are quite well aware that a HAVC tech makes more than any ‘Social Studies’ or Gender studies teacher, and we have a lot of the infrastructure and a remnant of skilled tradespeople to transmit the information (I know lots of electricians, plumbers, equipment operators who, like me, are in their 60’s and still have the knowledge but not a body that can take 8 hours of hard work).

[Republican in occupied CA]

Boom. You nailed it.
That stuff is fine, but not on my dime.
Math, science, English, civics (as it used to be taught), and then if you still want to suck off the taxpayer teat instead of getting a job pick a trade and get to it.

[DIRTYSECRET]

Occupied-very good.

Grew up together with some of the dummest kid(s). A geology teacher said that in Africa one with a cut on their hand would stick it in a bucket of kerosene because there was no iodine available. Everyone (8th grade) was grossed out. The dummest kid then had to ask: “If a guy has a cut on his forehead does this mean he’ll stick his head in the bucket?” He was dumb but funny. That tells me he just might have been smart but none of us would know. Injustice.