Posted on 04/17/2021 2:44:40 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo
Federal law and ATF regulations require a licensed firearms dealer (an FFL holder) to record the date a firearm was received, the date of receipt, and the name and address or the name and license number (FFL number) of the person (or corporation) from whom the firearm was received. The dealer must also record the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any) and the model, serial number, type and caliber or gauge.
Then, when a firearm is disposed of, for any reason, a dealer is required to record the disposition: showing the date of sale or other disposition– gift, loan or testing (anytime a gun leaves the licensed premises it must be logged out of the bound book) and the name and address or the name and license number (FFL number if a dealer) of the person (or corporation) to whom the firearm was transferred. If to a non-FFL holder, there will also be a completed form 4473 in the dealer’s records and the information will include the person’s full legal name and address, NICS approval code and make, model and caliber.
These requirements have been in place since at least 1968 and dealers must make their records available for ATF inspection during business hours — and no warrant is required. The law prohibits ATF from making complete copies of dealer’s records which could be used to create a registry of guns and gun owners.
Now that I’ve explained the law, I want to explain how computer technology is causing a problem for gun buyers.
While attending the SHOT Show, I learned about a software package that makes dealer record keeping easier.
The software allows dealers to keep an electronic bound book. It is an online package and the dealer pays a monthly fee based upon the number of transactions. When the software is being used, the screen resembles a bound book. The software has spell check and prevents misspelling of names such as Glock (Gloc) or SCCY (SKKY). And because all of the information is typed on a screen, it makes it easy for those who have poor quality handwriting to keep legible records that can then be made into a PDF which, when printed, looks like a traditional printed “bound book.”
Software, making daily tasks easier… what could possibly go wrong?
Plenty!
When speaking with the software vendors, I specifically asked how does ATF conduct compliance inspections of dealers who are using this software package. I was given a demonstration and shown how the software exports the data (guns and gun buyers names and addresses) into either a PDF that resembles an old-fashioned bound book or a Comma Separated Values (CSV) file that can be opened in Microsoft Excel.
I was told that this “feature” makes a compliance check easy because the dealer simply exports the CSV file to a thumb drive and the ATF leaves with the data. I was told that ATF analyzes the data away from the FFL’s premises. If there are any discrepancies or problems the gun dealer is notified and usually given an opportunity to correct the errors.
When dealing with compliance with government rules, many people do what is easy. That’s why so many file their US form 1040 tax return electronically, even though experts claim that increases the likelihood of an audit. I wasn’t surprised when the software vendor told me how well-received their application has been. Especially since it makes things easy, and ATF is not on dealer’s premises for more than a few minutes.
I accept that it is bad for business to have ATF personnel hanging around. This scheme is a danger, and allows ATF to easily create a gun registry — in violation of 18 USC 926 (a)(3). We have no way to know if a registry is actually being created and if the ATF is or is not destroying these records at the conclusion of the compliance check. One might argue they’re not, because GOA has received reports of ATF demanding copies of entire (paper) bound books. That is bad, but at least with paper, the data still needs to be converted to an electronic format to be of any real use. However, a CSV file that can be searched in MS Excel is of significant value to a government that wishes to track gun owners.
How do you feel about your personal information — linked to guns you own, by make, model and serial number — being put into the ATF’s hands? If you’re like me, you don’t like it, and you know that registration can and has led to confiscation. Not only in far away foreign lands but in US states like New York.
So what can you, the regular GOA Member and gun buyer do to protect yourself?
Ask. That’s right, ask your dealer how he keeps his or her records. Are they compiled in an old-fashioned bound book, or are they using one of these twenty-first century software packages?
GOA’s advice is to find a small, preferably home-based FFL — one who still keeps paper records — and transact exclusively with that FFL dealer. Take affirmative steps to protect yourself.
And that my friend is infringing against my Second Amendment Rights.
“The BATFE has been illegally collecting the information for decades. They know what firearms you have purchased.”
Not necessary true. I live in a state where person to person sales are totally legal without any paperwork or background checks. Over the last decades I have utilized this very legal method to stock my gun safes. MAYBE, or MAYBE NOT.
I am under no requirement to disclose what guns are in what safes or even where those safes are located.
I am also not required to disclose how many firearms I have made for myself or where they are located.
Many of us were well aware of the liberals intentions of tracking and knowing where firearms are located for future confiscation.
Anyone with half a brain and a 4k$ CNC machine can make AR lowers all day long and if they are for your own use it is totally legal.
Biden is dead set on making home made firearms illegal and there is no big surprise in that either.
I am amazed at the large numbers of boating accidents where firearms are lost in deep water.
Are you prepared to tell the feds on your doorstep that line considering you’d probably be looking at a ten year federal prison term per non taxed firearm? I doubt it. I certainly wouldn’t. Best have the ones you don’t declare concealed away from your property. We will eventually see “Boston Strong” type police thuggery as the authorities follow up on reports of non compliant or non taxed firearms, mags and ammunition.
If you have to ATM the cash you need for whatever it is. Or, save up some cash and go that route. But, like not having a ‘social media’ presence, buying with cash looks suspicious these days to some folks.
The problem here is that it is a felony to lie to a government cop.
They have a list or access to registered firearms or legally purchased firearms.
“The problem here is that it is a felony to lie to a government cop.”
True, so never say anything to one. I wouldn’t give a fed the time of day off my watch.
I thought the advice was never, ever talk to a Federal agent, about anything?
Have you noticed that when you search for tires that every ad you see is related to tires? I’m 67. It seems that practically everything I see online is targeted at my age group. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. The computer knows more about you than you’d guess possible. Practically everyone is using datamining to target their advertising. Hardly anyone uses newspapers or flyers anymore as targeted advertising is so much superior.
The government uses datamining*. Let’s say you ordered three hundred rounds of 9mm. Later, you ordered a laser for your gun. Even if the government does not know you what gun you own (I used a local FFL who keeps his data on a spiral notebook) it’s pretty easy to find out that you do own a gun. Also, the FFL calls in** and does the check with the FBI. Do they keep records? Even if they don’t it’s pretty easy to find out what you have.
Now, are they going to come take it away when they make guns illegal? No. Confiscation is not the plan. Making you into a criminal so they can take your voting rights away is the plan. They don’t even want you in prison...unless you’re about to win office somewhere.
* Here’s an example of datamining. Let’s say there’s a murder in San Francisco. The only clue is a partial print. It’s not enough for a positive match as some 10,000 people match the tiny sample they have. Then, they engage the computers and full speed ahead. Using datamining they do a search of the credit cards and find that 9,500 of the potential suspects have used their credit cards recently and too far away to make them plausible suspects. A search of death records and hospital stays eliminates about 300 more. They’re down to just 200 suspects. A search of phone records puts three of them within a relatively close proximity. On the Thursday before one of those suspects had lunch in the same restaurant as the deceased. They also belong to the same health club.
** So, the first time I sat in my FFL’s kitchen while he called in the FBI check, he got this panicked look and said, “What do you mean keep him here?! Then he looked over at me and said, “I’m on hold.”
Be realistic.
They track your CC purchases. You buy 9mm or 5.56 ammo you are flagged in the system as owning a handgun or an AR.
Also realize that my “paranoia” in saying that is nothing compared to the real paranoia of those tracking all things firearm related. These people are nucking futs and very dangerous.
“They have a list or access to registered firearms or legally purchased firearms.”
You used the right word there: legally. Thousands of guns across the US are sold on street corners every day. Those are not known. Then you’ve got the stolen and lost ones that are part of that.
The US can be confirmed accountable for a small percentage of weapons in the US. They’re dreaming about controlling them. This is why the left is trying to take them away from you no matter who the belong to.
wy69
They definitely know what ones I bought FROM DEALERS and the CMP in the last 20 years. Not those I traded for, person to person.
They probably have a huge list of those I used to own but no longer have that I traded off since 1968.
Everyone should inventory their firearms to see which ones DO NOT have a paper trail.
Can't even make it through the first sentence without repeating himself. Is there a new law that prohibits reading over something you wrote before mashing the post button?
Let them try to prove you didn't sell it....
Of course, that's one reason that requiring paperwork for private sales is a red line, because it is a necessary prerequisitw to confiscation.
Exactly.
They can easily know you are a gun owner, if you buy things online, or visit various online sites.
But they do not know, generally exactly what guns you own.
Which is why they want mandatory registration.
𝘐 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘯𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳, 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳 𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬 𝘵𝘰 𝘢 𝘍𝘦𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘨𝘦𝘯𝘵, 𝘢𝘣𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘢𝘯𝘺𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨?
I used to be a criminal justice major when I was first going to college over 20 years ago, one of the most valuable things I’ve ever learned back then was: Do not talk to any member of law enforcement without an attorney present, and do not invite them into your home without a warrant. Not saying be an impolite, rude or stone faced, but there are times when it’s time just a good idea just to not say anything without legal counsel.
“Does The ATF Have a List of Guns that You Own?”
Doesn’t matter. Gun-owning veterans and hunters are better trained and better shots than the ATF weenies.
The ATF knows that.
1. The State of LOUISIANA does not require a bill of sale between individuals.
2. The two gun shops in town closed down 4 years ago.
If you got a 4473 on anything you got, or a form 1 or something, they probably know. If not, they can most likely come about the information.
I’d be surprised if there WASN’T a database, but if they did it can’t be accurate. Private sales, gifts, etc would really throw it off, I imagine.
Kinda impossible to track private sales in states that allow them.
until you can provide proof of that boating accident
= = =
The sea level is rising.
Case closed!
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