Posted on 01/17/2019 2:31:08 AM PST by Ozguy1945
Is Indonesia the missing link in the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue (between India, Australia, Japan and America) created as a response to the rise of China?
Do Free Republic readers believe reaching out in friendship to Indonesia is in the interests of The West?
Thanks.
20th Century Turkey did not start wars. 21st century Turkey on the other hand...
Don’t be blind to Islam. It is the proverbial Sword of Damocles.
China is a nation. Islam is trans-borders.
As the UK and Europe give in more and more
to Muslim immigration, the cultures will
become more and more Islam-friendly.
Indonesia’s Muslims need only lay low until
the rest of the world is too polluted to resist.
It won’t be a war, but an ongoing surrender.
Hi OzGuy1945!
I have a distinction among FReepers, at least those replying to you:
I served in the USAF in Woomera , Australia, Nurranga, to be specific, from 1982-84. I was glad to be a small part of the ANZUS Treaty!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Defense_Facility_Nurrungar
I have a very special place in my heart for Australia and Aussies!
I do understand what you say about Indonesia’s version of Islam.
HOWEVER, under the rule of the Shah, so did Iran (Persia). Persia was always considered tolerant compared to other Islamic majority nations.
But look what happened with the fundamentalist Ayatollah Khomeini took over! He called it the Islamic Revolution, and even today, the shock troops of Iran are called the Revolutionary Guards.
Indonesia, I’m afraid, is only one Islamic revolution away from the same fate.
If the USA can’t protect our ALLY Australia from the Chinese, I doubt that the Indonesians can either.
I don't worry too much about a military invasion of Australia by Chinese.
I worry more about China becoming the dominant cultural influence in Australia.
China is developing immense economic power. They are buying considerable influence in Australia.
I openly heard discussions of whether Australia should consider an alliance with China instead of the U.S.
It appears to me that China is already buying up large amounts of Australia real estate, and driving up the price of real estate enormously.
I am curious if any Australians have heard or seen a tilt toward China in their politics.
When Duterte became their president in mid 2016 there was a marked deterioration in Filipino American relations and Duterte reached out to China. Things have improved since Donald Trump’s election.
Naturalman1975 thanks very much for your insights.
Thank you for your service.
I think joint naval exercises with Indonesia near Natuna Island is something we Australians should consider. Do you agree? Or is the risk of offending China and suffering trade retaliation too great?
There are places like Aceh where the locals are allowed much more conservative practices in their own area than would be tolerated elsewhere. This is part of keeping these regions in the Republic. I dont think we can hope that all of Indonesia will become as moderate as Java. I think what we should focus on is that the dominant ethnic group, the Javanese, are moderate. Though on matters like gay marriage they are very conservative. We cant change that.
Hoping that Indonesia will become secular is not realistic. Religions are strong there. The muslims have the numbers to impose their will on the non muslim 10 percent but the majority of the muslims do not want to force their beliefs on to others.
When the police and armed services know they are dealing with terrorists, they shoot to kill. It doesnt happen often though.
Naturalman1975 thanks very much for your insights.
Thank you for your service.
I think joint naval exercises with Indonesia near Natuna Island is something we Australians should consider. Do you agree? Or is the risk of offending China and suffering trade retaliation too great?
There are places like Aceh where the locals are allowed much more conservative practices in their own area than would be tolerated elsewhere. This is part of keeping these regions in the Republic. I dont think we can hope that all of Indonesia will become as moderate as Java. I think what we should focus on is that the dominant ethnic group, the Javanese, are moderate. Though on matters like gay marriage they are very conservative. We cant change that.
Hoping that Indonesia will become secular is not realistic. Religions are strong there. The muslims have the numbers to impose their will on the non muslim 10 percent but the majority of the muslims do not want to force their beliefs on to others.
When the police and armed services know they are dealing with terrorists, they shoot to kill. It doesnt happen often though.
Since the democratic era began in Indonesia in 1999, the four chosen presidents have all been devout but moderate muslims.
Fundamentalism does seem to me to be endemic in the Middle East. But in Indonesia where I have spent 40% of the past three decades, I have seen that the moderates rule. Their potential to be a model for peace is real.
I agree that large sudden influxes of muslim people is something to be avoided. Australia’s need to be friends with Islamic Indonesia does not make us Islamic.
marktwain, I am not sure which i like more ........ your name or what you have written here ......
That's what they said about Turkey. It's only a matter of time.
Not being blind to but understanding Islam is crucial. The fundamentalists who act on hate must be recognised and avoided where possible and prevented from acts of hate or made to pay for any acts of hate we cant prevent. But there is a huge moderate majority in Indonesia who want to be on our side and who distrust China. If we see Islam as a monolithic enemy we misread it. It is a very splintered group of people.
“Moderate” Muslims are apostates, and they are basically those who are more culturally Islamic.
Alas Babylon!
Thank you for your service.
My Dad served under (a long long way under) Douglas MacARTHUR IN 1945.
The dramatic change which has happened in Indonesia, 20 years ago, is away from authoritarianism towards democracy.
Senator Sam Dastyari of the “progressive” Australian Labor Party was forced to resign from the senate for improper promotion of Chinese interests.
I dont think “tilt” i the right word for this sort of corruption.
I believe parts of the Islamic world would like to but are too busy being disunited to pull it off.
If China takes Taiwan, it may not lead to anything more ......
China is doing to well out of trade to start fighting, but if abandoning the one child policy leads to a population surge, will that create internal pressure to expand?
Pressure to expand seems trivial in a country so vast as China with ‘ghost cities’ waiting to be populated.
Muslims behave decently in exact inverse proportion to their observance of their religion. The relatively normal Muslim nations are Islamic in name only - with secular governments and relaxed attitudes toward religious practice or non-practice. Indonesia and Malaysia tolerate Buddhist and Hindu temples and generally don't persecute non-Muslims because they don't take their Islam seriously. Nations that do take Islam seriously: Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban, Saudi Arabia persecute "infidels" or forbid other religions outright.
Sometimes there's a disconnect between a secular and relatively tolerant ruler and a pious population. Egypt is a good case in point. General Al Sisi's government is secular in attitude and generally friendly towards Coptic Christians, but the Egyptian population is generally anything but secular or tolerant. This means that non-Muslims may be left alone by the government, but they're harassed, persecuted, and even murdered by the rabble.
Between 10 and 40% of Islamists are fundies or fundy supporters depending on the poll. 1.8 billion adherents to Islam. That is a lot of “When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads” – Quran 47:4.
The same thing happened with Japan in the 1980s. Seriously, it happened in BOTH the USA and Australia.
They even made movies about the impending Japanese economic takeover.
We’re at the same point with China, except they have even more of the market captured than Japan could think of.
President Trump is trying to get a new trade deal with China. If it works, you’ll start to see China’s leverage go down and the USA’s go up.
Hopefully, the next step after that would be Australia and the USA getting into a good trade deal with each other.
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