Mythbustin AK-47 Inaccuracies

Am Shooting Journal ^ | 6/6/2017 | J Reeves

[w1n1]

After seeing another blog claim that the AK47 shot 10 MOA (or 10″ groups at 100 yards), James Reeves became fed up with the bullshit and decided to test the prevalent belief that the AK is an inaccurate combat rifle.

In this episode of TFBTV, James compares an American made AR15 to a Russian and Serbian/Yugoslavian AK to answer this question (and perhaps bust this myth?) once and for all.

James uses the Yugo M70 AK and Saiga SGL21 AK shooting 124 grain Wolf ammo. Shooting the target at 100 yards downrange. The AK's did well against the AR's. Shooting accurately repetitively with the AR's is simple. See the mythbustin AK accuracy results here. Any AK owners out there?, what do you think?

[Frederick303]

We almost certainly overlapped at Camp Perry, was there every year from 1989 to around 2009, with a few years after, but not in any real competitive guise.

My home away from home, many a year I contemplated the year in review while enjoying the sun-set out on the old ammunition dock by the clubhouse.

[JamesP81]

Untrue. If the trunnion of the rifle is pressed in straight and the barrel is pressed in with sufficient precision, typically through the use of laser levels, AKs are capable of the same level of accuracy as an AR. The plant that builds a particular rifle has everything to do with it. If your barrel is pressed into the trunnion with .0002” of runoff, for example, you’ll be looking at about 1.5”-1.75” groups at 100 all day. I build them. People buy cheap junk CE they arms and thing that quality applies to the entire AK family. I use AKs chambered in 7.62x39 almost exclusively and it’s minute of chest all day long at 350 if the builder goes the extra mile. Rifle dynamics has a model that will do 7” groups at 650 yards, which I refused to believe until I saw it myself. It’s all about building the rifle part by part on a 1:1 ratio. Anything less will result in subpat accuracy.

If you do this as a business, private message me a web link to your site. I might be interested in a 7.62x39 AK that can reliably punch 2" at 100 yards, especially if it can do it with cheap steel case 8m3.

[Big Red Badger]

Blog Bot.....?
It’s strange....
Harmless...?

[This_Dude]

For 2” at a hundred, you don’t need custom. Norinco mak90 fits the bill. That’s a GREAT plant and makes a class of rifle that proved to me an AK is minute of hog heart at 200 if your scope is tight and right.

My wife and I just started the business on a local scale out of a village in central Louisiana, we don’t have a website yet. Were still coming uo with a name for the shop. I’m helping break the myth about AK inaccuracy. Trying to. It’s going OK, but I’m not a big name like Jim Fuller, but hopefully I can fix that. I’ve only made a handful on the professional level, but trying to ramp it up. The necessary tools were pretty costly. American AKs are subpar in general, except custom jobs and I one day hope to have a small factory to mass produce quality AKs, but we’re starting small

[JamesP81]

That, my friend, is a worthy endeavor. Sounds kind of like a dream job to me.

Of course it always does when you’re not the one paying the bills :D

[This_Dude]

That is my dream, pretty much. I would also like to further develop the round itself, but I’m not sure how to set about doing that. For now I’m just happy pouring my heart into quality arms, and I selected the AK because it’s always been my favorite. We’re thinking of the name Widow’s Patch Arms, because it was my father’s land and he outlived my mother for a while. My wife is an artist and she’s doing our emblem

[doorgunner69]

I sure hear you on the Mini-14. I wanted that rifle to shoot well, it was just so damn nifty handling. Your grouping sounds like what I got, So poor it was impossible to adjust the scope to bring the “group” into alignment.

[SgtHooper]

Agree!!

[This_Dude]

The problem with the AKs is that they’re usually assembled out of crap parts in a 3rd world plant with no more than a rubber mallet or, at best, a hydraulic house Jack with no thought to squaring up the barrel to the action. Then you’re gonna have rather serious accuracy issues. It takes an EXTREME level of care to get it right, as it’s a very highly sensitive procedure and will make or break the rifle overall. I like Chinese production best because in modern times, they do that by means of a robot that presses the necessary parts in perfectly with run off barely measuring in the 10,000ths of an inch bracket. It came a long way from the 50s, or even the 80s

[Frederick303]

From observation of AK pattern rifles in NMC matches the Norinco AK rifles and the Romanian WASR were the very worst in terms of aiming point moving as the rifles heated up. With such rifles the concept of a “zero” is more or less a chimera.

Of course I hear about all the accurate AK rifles, it just seems no one who ever actually goes to a rifle match has found one.

Kind of like accurate M1 carbines, every one knows someone who has one, yet somehow less than 2 percent of them in the hands of CMP shooters seem to be able to put in a 10 shot group of less that 4 inches at a fixed aiming point 100 yards away.

[This_Dude]

Not sure what year they were built. More modern generally means more accurate, but again, that depends on the plant. I don’t purport to “know a guy” with an accurate AK. I own 4, one of which is competition grade and WILL wreck a stock ARs afternoon in competition. Perhaps it’s the fault of the shooters? Not many Americans are used to a 14 inch sight radius. If your barrel is installed perfectly pencil straight, you will have good accuracy. No one on this thread can refute that fact. The problem is finding a build of sufficient quality, of which I only know of a few plants capable without being a Definitive Arms (or similar) custom build.

[This_Dude]

Agreed on the WASR. All are garbage before 2008 and afterward, while an improvement, are still not great. At 3” groups at 100, I start pulling out squares and checking important angles and almost always find them to be off just a bit. My second was a WASR made in the 80s and shot 4”. I got rid of that out of spec piece of junk. It was so bad that if you rested the mag on the ground while shooting, it wouldn’t feed properly and give you problems

[yarddog]

Yes, it really is a shame that a rifle which looks, feels and handles so well could not seem to be made accurate.

Ruger must have tried to correct the accuracy problem. It must have been endemic to the design. I recall reading many years ago that the British eventually gave up on making the Jungle Carbine shoot well.

They finally decided it was just part of the design.

[JamesP81]

That is my dream, pretty much. I would also like to further develop the round itself, but I’m not sure how to set about doing that. For now I’m just happy pouring my heart into quality arms, and I selected the AK because it’s always been my favorite. We’re thinking of the name Widow’s Patch Arms, because it was my father’s land and he outlived my mother for a while. My wife is an artist and she’s doing our emblem

If you want some reference on developing the cartridge, there has been some work done already. 22 PPC is descended from 7.62x39 (it started as a derivative of 220 Russian, which is itself a 7.62x39 derivative). 6.5 Grendel also started as a wildcat of the 7.62x39.

The big shame of the 7.62x39 is that the shape of the case is very conducive to consistent powder burn, which translates to better precision (note the acknowledged accuracy of the aforementioned Grendel). Unfortunately most x39 ammo is loaded imprecisely in steel cases and fired from poorly built AKs and 40 year old SKS carbines over crappy iron sights. Lapua is the only maker I know of making match grade x39, and it purportedly shoots like a laser in the CZ527, at least over the round's admittedly short effective range.

If you could manufacture steel case ammo at steel case prices, and pair that ammo with an AK that could hold 2 inch 100 yard groups, you'd have a serious winner on your hands. Beyond that, do something with the AKs buttstock to make it friendlier to optics and you're in the tall cotton.

[JamesP81]

We’re thinking of the name Widow’s Patch Arms, because it was my father’s land and he outlived my mother for a while. My wife is an artist and she’s doing our emblem

Has a nice ring to it, IMO.

[JamesP81]

Yes, it really is a shame that a rifle which looks, feels and handles so well could not seem to be made accurate.

Ruger must have tried to correct the accuracy problem. It must have been endemic to the design. I recall reading many years ago that the British eventually gave up on making the Jungle Carbine shoot well.

They finally decided it was just part of the design.

I'm pretty certain it's part of the design. The Mini-14's operating mechanism is extremely similar to the M1 and M14. Neither of those rifles are nail drivers either in their rack grade configuration, but they're acceptable and with good ammo, pretty decent. Swapping out for high quality barrels and a good stock bedding makes them shoot pretty straight.

I suspect the Garand mechanism does not scale down well to 223 / 5.56. The inherent problem is the skinny barrel of the Mini flexes really bad right at the gas block. You'll notice most of the accuracy tuning procedures involve messing with the gas block, or attaching struts to it to try to stabilize the barrel a bit better in that area. The new Minis with the thicker barrel ahead of the gas block perform considerably better than the older ones, at a small weight penalty. They still aren't great shooters, but they are at least accurate enough now to legitimately be 'ranch rifles' as claimed.

At this point, you can get a good AR-15 cheaper than a Mini.

[Lurker]

“Neither is a good starting point for a sniper rifle (600 yards plus)”

At MCRD back in the 80s I was required to hit man sized targets at 500 yards with a rack grade M16A1 just to qualify as a rifleman. I scored 240 out of a possible 250 to earn Expert.

I know 500 yards isn’t 600 yards. But considering we were using rack grade 1970s vintage rifles, that’s pretty damned close.

Most modern firearms are capable of much greater accuracy than folks give them credit for. AKs included.

L

[taxcontrol]

Remember, a sniper rifle STARTS at 600 yards and is often engaged up to 1,000. The .223 makes a poor choice for such distance. I am not saying that an M16 in the proper hands, can’t touch a person at 600 yards. I am saying that with a ballistic coefficient in the 0.23 to 0.26 range, and 55 grain bullet weight, there is not much ooomph left at 600 yards. In fact, the energy is down to a .22LR and the drop is approaching 120” at 600 yards.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/223-ballistics-chart/

Not that I would want to be hit by a .223 at 600 yards.

[Lurker]

I understand that. I was just making a point.

Best,

L

[RandallFlagg]

I’ve heard that the AK is akin to a machete, while the AR is akin to a scalpel.
I don’t own an AK, so I can’t confirm or deny this.