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Dangerous Malfunction from Water Damaged Remington 700
Gun Watch ^ | 17 December, 2013 | Dean Weingarten

Posted on 12/16/2013 8:20:48 PM PST by marktwain


The clip at the rear of the trigger group shows rust from the water damage

 I recently found that a Remington 700 rifle was water damaged in storage.  It was stored butt down, with a gun sock around the rifle.   The sock wicked water from near the floor up toward the action.  Outside, there was no indication that damage had been done, as the composite stock is impervious to water.

The rifle has always had an excellent trigger, in the range of 1.5 to 2 lbs.   It was set up for target shooting, and did not appear to be modified from the factory. After I had dried the stock and made sure that the action was clear, I aimed at a suitable backstop and pressed the trigger... nothing.   I made sure the safety was off... nothing.

I put the safety on and worked the action.  Now I pushed the safety forward.

CLICK!

The sound of the striker firing was very loud, as I did not expect it.

I tried it again.  Safety on.  Work the action.  Push the safety forward.

CLICK!

Safety off.   Work the action.  The rifle would not stay cocked.  The only way the rifle will stay cocked, is with the safety on.

I tried it for 20 more times to be sure.   Everytime, the mechanism worked exactly the same way.   The safety had become the effective trigger.

I expect that the mating surfaces of the sear were damaged by rust, and they simply were not able to hold the striker in the cocked position by themselves.  However, when reinforced by the safety mechanism, there is sufficient strengh/mechanical advantage to hold the striker in the cocked position. Then, when the safety is released, the striker slips forward.  There is no doubt in my mind that the rifle would fire if a cartridge were in the chamber.

I do not fault Remington for this problem.   They cannot be expected to have their rifles work after they have been damaged.  However, the damage is very slight, and not easily noticible from the outside.   It is plausible that it could happen in the field if the rifle were rained on or splashed on and stored for a few days.

Just another reminder that Murphy is always present, and to always check your firearms after storage, to insure that the mechanisms are working properly.


©2013 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Link to Gun Watch


TOPICS: Health/Medicine; Hobbies; Science
KEYWORDS: banglist; malfunction; remington700; safety
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To: Rage cat

Oh, I agree that the Walker Fire Control System is a flawed design. No quibble there.

The crux of the matter in Remington’s case is money. They went with the WFCS design because it allows them to harden the connector (a little strip of bent steel that rides in front of the trigger) apart from the main trigger bar. This is the same reason why, on the Rem 700, they have a bolt that is made from soldering three pieces together: The main bolt body, the handle and the forward part of the bolt where the lugs are. They did this so that they could heat treat the part with the lugs and not have to deal with heat treatment on the rest of the bolt. There are many bolts made from a single-piece bolt (with the lugs) and a handle is welded or soldered on, but Remington is the only one I know of where they chose to get so damned cheap about their heat treatment that they’d break the main part of the bolt into two pieces, heat treat only one and then silver solder them together. In every aspect on most all their products, Remington looks to cut costs to the bone. Appearance and quality be damned. There’s a reason why I own only one Remington rifle and nothing else from them.

At TSJC they warned us loud and long about Rem 700 triggers and their failure mechanisms, and to never set them under about 4 pounds, for reasons of protecting one’s self against liability. If you want to set some other type of trigger to 3.5 or whatever, OK, but the Rem700 original trigger is a lawsuit just waiting to happen - and has happened to Remington, several times in the last 20 years. They’ve paid off millions of bucks for this exact type of failure - i.e., failure of the connector to return with the trigger, the safety is what is holding the pin in a cocked position, drop the safety and the pin fires. The problem only gets worse when the trigger pull weight spring (which pushes back on the face of the connector) is set to a light weight. If someone wants a 1 to 2 lb. trigger in a Rem 700, they really need to get an aftermarket trigger.

The best way to see what is going on here is to look at the patent drawings:

http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=02514981&IDKey=97D61BAEE503&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fpatimg.htm

See Fig 1. The connector is item # 39. It just floats on the front of the trigger, item #40, held in place there by the spring item #42. If there is rust, dirt, gummed up lube in between the two side-plates of the trigger group, the connector can be pushed forward by a trigger pull, and the gunk puts enough friction on the connector that it can overcome the spring pressure (from item #42), which leaves the connector off of the trigger. Now you’re set for a firing from letting off the safety.

This would especially happen because you used to be able to pull the Rem700 trigger with the safety on, and this, as you point out, is a rather large fault in the design. Safety on, pull trigger, connector doesn’t come back, and you have NO CLUE that it didn’t come back, flick off safety and rifle fires.

In this case, the owner was at least smart enough to check the rifle without ammo.

In Mike Walker’s defense, he suggested a fix to this issue to Remington years and years ago, but Remington never took his suggestion.


21 posted on 12/16/2013 10:12:38 PM PST by NVDave
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To: doorgunner69
In some of the last sentences of the article:
However, the damage is very slight, and not easily noticeable from the outside.

Could indicate that it initially looked like a discolored spot or two.

22 posted on 12/16/2013 10:23:38 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: marktwain

A cartridge should not go in a gun that has not been checked over thoroughly enough to discover this sort of malfunction.

Thanks for telling us about this, but it saddens me that it was necessary.


23 posted on 12/16/2013 10:34:53 PM PST by Born to Conserve
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To: marktwain

Never count exclusively on a physical safety.
The strongest safety is the one between your ears.


24 posted on 12/16/2013 10:51:05 PM PST by mylife (Ted Cruz understands the law, and he does not fear the unlawful.)
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To: smokingfrog

Thnx!


25 posted on 12/16/2013 11:45:23 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: marktwain
Some WD40'll clean that right up for ya....;)



Stay Safe.
26 posted on 12/17/2013 3:38:14 AM PST by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum -- "The Taliban is inside the building")
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To: marktwain

I better head to the lake and see if I can dredge mine up and check them...


27 posted on 12/17/2013 5:31:21 AM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: marktwain

Well, there go my hopes for recovering all those guns people loss in terrible boating accidents.


28 posted on 12/17/2013 7:18:33 AM PST by Arrowhead1952 (The Second Amendment is NOT about the right to hunt. It IS a right to shoot tyrants.)
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To: Delta 21

Remington 700’s are a dangerous rifle with a history of misfires. I think there is an after market drop in trigger you can get for them. Best advice is just don’t buy one.

Mr. GG2 recently told a friend not to buy one. He went out and bought one anyway. First day out with his teen son hunting; missfire. Next day he sold it and bought a Ruger American which was the gun Mr. GG2 initially suggested. For $358 you can’t go wrong.


29 posted on 12/17/2013 8:02:09 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2; mylife

Heck, ALL my rifles are dangerous!

I am not a big fan of manual safeties. It was a big part of me changing my carry piece from semi-auto back to a revolver.


30 posted on 12/17/2013 7:17:04 PM PST by Delta 21 (If you like your freedom, you can keep your freedom. Period.)
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To: NVDave

In your opinion, does a Timney unit solve this problem?


31 posted on 12/18/2013 10:07:45 AM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: MileHi

First, there are three problems:

1. The Rem700 trigger blocks the sear, not the trigger.
2. The Rem700 trigger has a connector that floats off the trigger bar itself, causing the sear to have nothing but the safety holding it up.
3. Single stage triggers should simply not be adjusted to very light weights, if you want a really light trigger, you need to look into a trigger designed for really light pulls. Typical single-stage sporting triggers aren’t those triggers.

OK, so the Timney issue:

An older Timney that “adopts” your Remington safety lever onto their trigger fixes issue (2), but not (1) and (3). I wouldn’t use these any more.

The new Timney Remington triggers that have their own safety mechanism that blocks the trigger, not the sear, solve problems (1) and (2). You’ll notice that Timney has changed all their triggers for the Rem700 to block the trigger, not the sear.

Only a trigger designed for light weights (i.e., designed to be really reliable and consistent under 2 lbs) solves (3). IMO, this would be a two-stage trigger, like the Anschuetz trigger group, or something like the CG Jackson triggers.


32 posted on 12/18/2013 11:24:25 AM PST by NVDave
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To: NVDave
Thanks Dave.

I have never had trouble with my rifles. I am not after really light triggers either.

That said enough folks whose opinion I value, such as yourself, have convinced me I should change them. I have one Timney and like it.

As always, appreciate your advice.

Merry Christmas!

33 posted on 12/18/2013 1:19:59 PM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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