Posted on 05/19/2013 7:05:59 AM PDT by Seizethecarp
@4:10 WJ: Given the current kerfuffle that President Obama tried to lay to rest yesterday with the release of the long form, if he had essentially been born in Kenya for any reason would that have disqualified him automatically from being president of the United States?
Spiro: Well, good question. What has given the "birther" movement some legs is that under the law as it existed in 1961 Barack Obama would NOT have been a citizen at birth if he had been born in Kenya.
Now this C-SPAN video has been found from the non-partisan Washington Journal program recorded the day after Barry released his long form shows Prof. Spiro saying that Barry would NOT be eligible if born in Kenya, even though both Cruz and Barry would have a foreign birth and foreign citizen father and a US citizen mother.
Spiro is obviously correctly assessing Cruz's mom as meeting the married residency requirement and Barry's mom NOT meeting the married residency requirement to be citizen at birth, given the claimed marital status of each mother (both being legally married).
If Sheriff Arpaio's impending criminal birth certificate forgery charge gains traction and undermines Barry's Hawaii birth narrative, the mainstream media may regret having elevated Prof. Spiro as the "natural-born" legal expert given his on the record declaration that Barry would NOT be eligible if born in Kenya.
Of course, if Barry's parents were NOT legally married due to lack of a recorded 1961 marriage in HI or due to bigamy, the residency requirement for the mother for a non-US birth is shorter and Barry COULD be a citizen at birth if born in Kenya, but Prof. Spiro did not opine on that non-married fact pattern as applied to either Cruz or Barry.
His desire is to destroy the system that this country has had for the last 200 years.
The way to do that is to undermine everything that people believe in: business, religion, schools, yes even the IRS. Everything must be seen as corrupt.
I wouldn't put it past Obama to (at the end of his term) leak proof that he was born in Kenya, just for the mayhem it would cause. He's that evil.
The trick will be for us to keep our heads when the time comes.
The divorce court said his parents were legally married and the marriage produced a child.
If Ted Cruz runs, it will be essentially the same kind of scenario.
Mother - US citizen gives birth to child in foreign country.
Father - non US citizen at time of birth.
==
Per some ‘assessments’ the child is a US citizen because one parent was a US citizen at the time of the birth, without regard to where the birth actually took place.
I suppose, at the age of majority, the individual could choose to be the citizen of the country in which he was born or be a citizen of the country of either parent.
“The divorce court said his parents were legally married and the marriage produced a child.”
If it is proved that Barry’s HI BC was forged and this opens up the Kenyan birth scenario and his eligibility to be POTUS depended on his parents being legally unmarried I have no doubt that his legal team would JUMP to declare him to be a legal bastard! IMO, Barry’s legal team could easily prove that his parent’s marriage was bigamous (a legal nullity never having occurred) by establishing BHO Sr.’s legal marriage to Kezia back in Kenya, which was recorded in the INS FOIA documents and U of Hawaii administrators back in 1961 in these US government records.
There are “tells” in Barry’s legal filings and those of his enablers in the judiciary and the Congressional Research Service (CRS) citing to the 9th Circus Court of Appeals Marguet-Pillado case which, IMO, point to his legal team laying the groundwork to prepare for BOTH discovery that he was born in Kenya AND a claim of eligibility due to having a single mom.
See:
Here is the FR thread which discusses Marguet-Pillado and the key dicta (not holding) of the 9th Circus:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2857598/posts
“Obama cites US v Marguet-Pillado. Dicta implies Obama eligible even if born in Kenya (vanity)”
In support of the opinion in US v Marguet-Pillado, 9th Cir. 2011, Judge Gwin, writing for the majority in his “III Analysis” dicta, states: “No one disputes that Marguet-Pillado’s requested instruction was ‘an accurate statement of the law,’ in that it correctly stated the two circumstances in which an individual born in 1968 is a natural-born United States citizen: (1) that the person was born in the United States or (2) born outside the United States to a biologically-related United States citizen parent who met certain residency requirements.”
On March 1, (2012) Sheriff Arpaio’s Posse re-opened the possibility that Obama was born in Kenya by announcing that it had found probable cause to believe that Obama’s long form birth certificate was forged, newspaper birth announcements were unreliable, and that there was now no proof that Obama was born in the USA.
A week earlier, with full knowledge of what the Arpaio Posse’s findings would be, “constitutional scholar” Obama’s legal team suddenly started citing the Marguet-Pillado case in multiple PA and GA ballot eligibility state appeals.
The following language is included by Obama’s lawyers in the PA and GA MTD filings: “President Obama was a United States citizen from the moment of his birth inHawaii. Since he held citizenship from birth, all Constitutional qualifications have beenmet. Ankeny v. Governor of State of Indiana, 916 N.E.2d 678 (Ind. App., 2009); see,United States v. Marguet-Pillado , 648 F.3d 1001, 1006 (9thCir., 2011). There is no basis to question the President’s citizenship or qualifications to hold office.”
www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2011/08/.../10-50041.pdf
“If Ted Cruz runs, it will be essentially the same kind of scenario.”
No. If married Cruz’s mom meets the statutory residency requirement to pass citizenship to Cruz while Barry’s mom does NOT meet the residency requirement, if married.
Barry’s mom DOES meet the residency requirement to pass citizenship at birth if she was legally SINGLE and gave birth in Kenya.
“Per some ‘assessments’ the child is a US citizen because one parent was a US citizen at the time of the birth....”
.
That is a pretty arrogant statement to make.
Why can’t the child assume the citizenship from the non-US parent? Usually the child assumes the father’s citizenship and Bambi’s father was definitely not a US citizen. The US does not recognize double citizenship.
Besides, the damage to the country by his presidency has been done and is irreversible.
“If it is proved that Barry’s HI BC was forged and this opens up the Kenyan birth scenario and his eligibility to be POTUS depended on his parents being legally unmarried I have no doubt that his legal team would JUMP to declare him to be a legal bastard!”
He would have to make a case to the court that the divorce court made an error in it’s decision. Since both parties are deceased he would have to give a compelling reason for the courts decision to be changed.
The only reason he could give, he wants to be eligible for president. There is no other reason since he has all benefits of other citizens except that one.
He would have to admit he is not eligible to be president unless the courts decision is changed.
He would be ineligible until the court rules in his favor.
“The marital status of the parents is irrelevant. What is a ‘married residency requirement’? I don’t think that is in The Constitution.”
I find the Minor v. Happersett declarative definition of NBC to be persuasive, but obviously our legal elites, including the GOP-e do not as seen when the Senate unanimously declared McCain to be NBC and there were zero objections to Barry’s election by the electors in the House and Senate recorded for TWO elections.
Under discussion by the new go-to “natural-born” legal expert on this thread is the definition of “citizen at birth.” The expert stipulates that SCOTUS, has not yet ruled on the NBC status for a person such as Barry claims to be (born in US with alien non-resident father) and says the courts will evade any such ruling.
On the video in the opening comment the expert says there are basically two definitions of natural-born (soil and blood) and at issue is whether blood eligibility citizenship at birth is automatic or requires the parents to meet statutory requirements at the time of birth.
In 2011, Prof Spiro comes down on Barry being ineligible to be a citizen at birth if born in Kenya, and in 2013 Spiro says Canadian-born Cruz is eligible to be citizen at birth based on whether the US citizen mom met statutory residency requirements (assuming both moms were legally married).
Again, whether either Barry or Cruz being foreign-born are NBC, Prof Spiro says SCOTUS hasn’t ruled on that. But Spiro says that the EVOLVING CONSENSUS of the legal community (barf!) is that if a person is either a citizen at birth or entitled to be a citizen at birth (presumably after filing registration paperwork or retroactively deemed to be a citizen at birth like McCain) then a person is NBC.
If it is ever proven that he was born in Kenya, the BIG story will be that he lied. At this point into his second term the eligibility issue will not matter. It will be about committing fraud.
“He would have to make a case to the court that the divorce court made an error in it’s decision.”
IANAL, but my research shows that a bigamous marriage is a legal nullity, meaning that it never existed. It should be easy for Barry’s legal team to prove that if they had to.
If the HI marriage was a bigamous nullity, as clearly suspected by the US government itself in 1961, then the HI divorce was ALSO a nullity, not an error by the HI court.
Note that if the HI marriage was a nullity under UK law, which I believe it clearly was under UK Kenyan colonial law, then Barry was NOT a UK subject at birth since the UK law at the time, the BNA of 1948 ONLY applies to legitimately born children (children of legally married parents). UK colonial Kenya law did not recognize a non-Muslim plural marriage in Hawaii as being legal and passing UK citizenship to Barry, IMO. So Barry would not be a dual-citizen at birth if born in Hawaii to legally single Stanley Ann. He would have “unitary” US citizenship at birth if born in HI to a single mom.
I have believed this from the beginning. His mission is to take down America. And having him removed from office, after driving us into bankruptcy, spending our money by vacationing in our faces, corrupting the system and creating a complete unhealable racial divide was his goal.
You raise an intriguing hypothetical point. What if Obama said he WAS born in Kenya what would happen?
The Obama Birth Certificate is still important... because a foreign birth, and no removal of Obama...would mean Cruz can be President, since Obama set precedent by a foreign born serving as President
I guarantee that the same Obama Supporter RINOs that attacked Birthers for making Obama Eligibility an issue....will be the ones attacking Cruz over his eligibility. Guaranteed
By your logic, if someone gets away with murder, murder is then legal.
I met someone yesterday whose father was born at sea on.a boat trip from Italy to.Argentina. When the family got to Argentina, the infant’s birth was registered as Argentinean. So many variables are possible.
Congress did not do it's sworn duty to uphold the Constitution. This doesn't make Obama legal. The "qualification" requirement has still never been met. In many ways, the birth certificate is just a sideshow to the main story, the "qualification" requirement of the Twentieth Amendment, section three.
Unlike Cruz (or McCann) Obama has more than an ‘birth certificate’ problem or an ‘eligibility’ problem.
He has a legal identity problem. What is the legal name of this man?
- Barrack Hussein Obama II (Supposed LFBC and supposed COLB)
- Barrack Hussein Obama (no II, if not when did he drop it)
- Barry Obama (name used in high school)
- Barry Soetoro (name used in Indonesia)
What is the legal name of this man? We do not even know.
Everything before 1971 is suspect in terms of documentation and stories.
A divorce without a wedding is certainly a red flag for identity fraud. This is a technique used by illegal aliens to establish citizenship for their children. The divorce and Obama senior’s INS forms from 1964 are the first apparently valid documents that we know that establish a person who is a child of Obama Senior.
From 1961 to early 1964 the only ‘document’ for Obama are two obviously forged BCs.
There is then the Indonesia thread of existence where, by Indonesian law both SAD and BHO/BS are Indonesian citizens. This finishes with the 1971 Grand Family Reunion. It is incredible that there is no focus on this event where Barry’s paperwork was likely completely redone legally.
Barry maybe Kenyan - from the 1971 activity. But born in Kenya? Maybe. But it seems to be a honey pot story - designed to distract.
But legally it would appear Barry has a tie to Kenya. Rahm and family supposedly went on ‘Safari’ in December 2008. Yeah right....Anti-gun Jewish family goes to Kenya to go on Safari!?!?
“The ‘qualification’ requirement has still never been met. In many ways, the birth certificate is just a sideshow to the main story, the ‘qualification’ requirement of the Twentieth Amendment, section three.”
I am not prepared to assume that Barry is or is not “qualified” until full discovery of all facts and circumstances of his birth have been proved up in federal court in a discovery hearing which would require a “best evidence” BC for all claims. Then it would ultimately be up to SCOTUS to make a determination of his NBC status, unless his eligibility or ineligibility was obvious at after a discovery hearing.
What would make eligibility obvious? How about an Hawaiian BC showing Frank M. Davis or another US citizen (some FReepers cling to Malcolm X) was the birth dad? I don’t believe that is remotely likely, but absent a non-forged BC, anything is possible. The point is you have to have an original 1961 BC image authenticated by a hopefully non-corrupt authority as best evidence whether Hawaiian or Kenyan, for example.
The 1961 BC image and the father on that image would also lend support but not be dispositive towards establishing a claim of marriage between the parents, whether ultimately bigamous or not. This apparent marriage indicated on the BC combined with whether the BC was US or foreign could be critical in determining whether US residency requirements for a foreign birth made Barry a US citizen and/or a UK subject at birth.
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